164 replies to this topic

[ChristineH]

Just a tip for anyone using 100% whole broccoli sprouts as the ingredient in a capsule.  The biggest enemy of shelf life is moisture.  If the manufacturer has not adequately dried the raw material to the appropriate moisture level, there will be a steady conversion to sulforaphane within the capsule.  The problem here is that sulforaphane is very unstable and so before too long, you have no bioactivity.  An appropriately manufactured raw material can have a 3-year shelf life, with suggestions of course that it be stored away from light and in a dry environment.

 

To obtain 40-60 mg daily, you can reduce the number of capsules by choosing one that yields 14-15 mg sulforaphane; in that way, the capsule doses are much less than the 10 capsules you suggest - as few as 4 capsules daily gets very close to 60 mg.

[GABAergic]

so whole broccoli is useless for suforaphane. broccoli spouts have some, but are also not a good reliable enough source? i know it was explained somewhere but i couldnt find it. how stable is suforaphane when you consume actual broccoli sprouts and how much do you need? apologies i know it was talked about, but i just cant find the precise answer when i looked for it. everything i saw after going back is how unstable sulforaphane is and it has to be in a supplement form for best absorption but im trying to quit supplements. so christine, tell me again if not a huge problem, how reliable are actual sprouts and how much would one need instead of using any supplement?

Edited by GABAergic, 30 May 2019 - 01:45 AM.

[ChristineH]

so whole broccoli is useless for suforaphane. broccoli spouts have some, but are also not a good reliable enough source? i know it was explained somewhere but i couldnt find it. how stable is suforaphane when you consume actual broccoli sprouts and how much do you need? apologies i know it was talked about, but i just cant find the precise answer when i looked for it. everything i saw after going back is how unstable sulforaphane is and it has to be in a supplement form for best absorption but im trying to quit supplements. so christine, tell me again if not a huge problem, how reliable are actual sprouts and how much would one need instead of using any supplement?

 

Let me clarify.  Fresh broccoli sprouts will yield between 10-100 times more sulforaphane than broccoli vegetable.  If the vegetable is cooked, the enzyme is destroyed and you get none, although there can be a small amount converted from the glucoraphanin (not destroyed by cooking) by your gut microflora - but that is uncertain in an individual as we may or may not have any myrosinase activity in the species in an individual's gut - and no way to measure this.

 

Fresh sprouts can vary because there is a 16-fold variation in seed bioactive content.  In addition to that, there is the epithiospecifier protein (ESP) issue that significantly inhibits the myrosinase enzyme.  So, if you want to grow sprouts, you need to eat a lot to try to mitigate against these possible losses.  The clinical trials using fresh sprouts typically use 100 grams of sprouts daily - but the difference is that they use a known seed stock, so the SFN Yield is more predictable.

 

Sulforaphane is very unstable and we suggest that if you use the powdered version and mix it in water - or blend up the fresh sprouts, you really need to consume this within 10 minutes - but absolutely no more than 30 minutes.

 

So in answer to your last question, 100 grams of sprouts daily - but this leaves a question mark over the SFN Yield, so perhaps more to cover that.  It all depends on if you are using this just for preventive health effects - or if you have a particular condition where you want to be sure you matching the clinical trial dose.

 

(Perhaps you could save this information for future reference?)

[WillNitschke]

Broccoli is not "useless" for obtaining sulfurophane. GABAergic, you really need to stop making blanket statements about things you don't understand as if they were factual.

Some people want to hear, "just drop a pill" because it's the path of least work. Even if that pill is not doing much if anything (because maybe the quality is low or the dosage insufficient).

Here is the relevant paper:

https://www.scienced...00326701000125X

[WillNitschke]

I should add a separate paper for Victorian broccoli crop (Australia) came to 71mg/100g in their analysis.

[ChristineH]

I should add a separate paper for Victorian broccoli crop (Australia) came to 71mg/100g in their analysis.

 

What are you measuring? Glucosinolates? Glucoraphanin? Sulforaphane?  and I assume this is in vegetable, not sprouts.

 

For broccoli sprouts, we measure sulforaphane in mg/gram. 

 

So, if it's sulforaphane yield, 71mg/100 grams is only 0.71 mg/gram, whereas I am talking about a sulforaphane yield of 22 mg/gram.   

[WillNitschke]

What are you measuring? Glucosinolates? Glucoraphanin? Sulforaphane?  and I assume this is in vegetable, not sprouts.

 

For broccoli sprouts, we measure sulforaphane in mg/gram. 

 

So, if it's sulforaphane yield, 71mg/100 grams is only 0.71 mg/gram, whereas I am talking about a sulforaphane yield of 22 mg/gram.   

 

I'm not measuring anything but the study measured glucoraphain. And what was being measured was broccoli florets. Hence:

 

150g x 106.5 x .2 = 21.3mg of sulforaphane.

 

You're already at entry level now. If you're aiming for that 40mg to 60mg sweet spot, you can make up the difference with supplements. The active myrosinase in the fresh vegetable can then supplement anything lacking in the supplement, but preferably add some freshly crushed brown mustard seed to the mix or even better, daikon radish when you can get it.

Now you've got sulforaphane, fibre, additional micro nutrients, minerals and modest quantities of plant based protein and fats.

What is this paranoia here from certain quarters who want to avoid eating fresh vegetables at all cost? Eating 150g of fresh vegetable in the form of broccoli florets is not going to kill anyone, sorry. Even if you have to add some radish to that. (Yes I'm being tongue-in-cheek.)
 

Edited by WillNitschke, 30 May 2019 - 11:14 AM.

[ChristineH]

I'm not measuring anything but the study measured glucoraphain. And what was being measured was broccoli florets. Hence:

 

150g x 106.5 x .2 = 21.3mg of sulforaphane.

 

You're already at entry level now. If you're aiming for that 40mg to 60mg sweet spot, you can make up the difference with supplements. The active myrosinase in the fresh vegetable can then supplement anything lacking in the supplement, but preferably add some freshly crushed brown mustard seed to the mix or even better, daikon radish when you can get it.

Now you've got sulforaphane, fibre, additional micro nutrients, minerals and modest quantities of plant based protein and fats.

What is this paranoia here from certain quarters who want to avoid eating fresh vegetables at all cost? Eating 150g of fresh vegetable in the form of broccoli florets is not going to kill anyone, sorry. Even if you have to add some radish to that. (Yes I'm being tongue-in-cheek.)
 

 

Strange as it might seem for someone who happily discusses supplements, I have a 'Food First' philosophy!  Always did!  But I am also a clinician who sometimes has a patient who needs a measured amount of a bioactive molecule - a supplement is probably necessary.  If a patient consults a clinician, the clinician needs to be sure that the recommendations will be likely to achieve the desired goal - some of these patients will have serious and often life-threatening illnesses; they are encouraged to eat appropriately but some are simply too ill to follow such recommendations.  If you are a healthy person wanting to stay that way, by all means let the food do the work.  That's how humans have survived on this planet for millennia!

 

So, if you are a healthy individual who is dedicated to consuming 660 grams of a wide variety of non-starchy plant food daily, you may not need to supplement.  The 660 grams comes from a 2010 study by Hermsdorff who showed that this quantity of plant foods was necessary to significantly downshift inflammatory cytokines.

 

There is no conflict in this approach - it all depends on the individual or the patient and their clinical requirements.  

[ironfistx]

Humans, I am so confused, are we trying to get 24mg per day or 50mg per day?  By taking Broccomax you are getting 24 if you take 3 pills although ChristineH said you need 8 per day to get 24mg.    THen I just want to verify I am taking the right amount.  3 per day in water because it has a good flavor.  Here Broccomax and CHristineH's product are the only ones that seriously contain sulforaphane seriously?

[ChristineH]

Humans, I am so confused, are we trying to get 24mg per day or 50mg per day?  By taking Broccomax you are getting 24 if you take 3 pills although ChristineH said you need 8 per day to get 24mg.    THen I just want to verify I am taking the right amount.  3 per day in water because it has a good flavor.  Here Broccomax and CHristineH's product are the only ones that seriously contain sulforaphane seriously?

 

I think I've asked a few times what the health goal is because that determines the dose.  For prevention, 20 mg in a younger to middle-aged person is probably enough - but 40 mg in an elderly person.

 

I referred to a prostate study at one stage because of the available clinical trials, it used the highest dose at 60 mg.  The Helicobacter studies also used 60 mg.

 

The type 2 diabetes studies used 40 mg for a positive benefit.  Most of the available studies use approx 20 mg daily in the absence of cruciferous vegetables.

 

The supplements are of 4 types:

1. Broccoli seed extracts wherein the myrosinase has been inactivated - these yield zero sulforaphane of themselves but rely on the uncertain nature of the gut microflora to produce SFN (which averages ~ 10% of what is potentially available of the myrosinase remained in the product)
2. Broccoli seed extracts (a fairly recent innovation) whereby a source of myrosinase has been added to the seed extract
3. A whole broccoli sprout where the myrosinase is retained during processing - nothing but water removed.
4. The European and patented stabilised sulfloraphane supplement

 

Most of the US supplements are in

• #1 - seed extracts of glucoraphanin only
• #2  Jarrow own the patent on the Broccomax formulation and Avmacol do something similar but the SFN Yield is low
• #3  EnduraCell plus a number of low yielding sprout supplements 
• #4  Prostaphane have a stabilised sulforaphane but it comes with a heap of excipients I wouldn't want to be taking.  I dont think they supply outside Europe.

Hope that helps to sort out what's what.

[YoungSchizo]

An interesting test is mentioned here:

https://www.scienced...90508093733.htm

 

Though the main object of research was countering schizophrenia, the researchers also tested nine healthy humans by giving them 100micromoles of SFN per day. After only seven days the average amount of ergothionine in their brains was considerably higher. Very encouraging!

 

The one that are used in schizophrenia study's are daily 6 tablets of this brand.

 

The discussion about Sulforaphane on schizophrenia.com, here.

[ironfistx]

Following is an email from jarrow.

 

Thank you for your follow up e-mail. The sulforaphane generation takes place in the small intestine.

The capsules are DR (delayed release), so you may be reducing the optimal benefit by opening up the capsules.

[WillNitschke]

Following is an email from jarrow.

 

Thank you for your follow up e-mail. The sulforaphane generation takes place in the small intestine.

The capsules are DR (delayed release), so you may be reducing the optimal benefit by opening up the capsules.

 

BTW, I did look at all the supplements you listed, but didn't find anything practial. Frankly, the dosages of the active ingredients are either so low, and/or the cost of each is so high, that none of these look like sensible options for obtaining sulforaphane. So I'm sticking with eating broccoli florets in combination with white radish as frequently as I can bear. People prefer magic bullets, of course. So do I, actually. But in this case, I don't think they exist.

[ironfistx]

So you can take three brocomax and get the researched dose.  The other products don't seem to be as good.  But I'm confused because the person from the company said it's active in the small intestine and I thought anyone here said it was better absorbed in the stomach.  Seriously, I'm loving this thread.  Are there measurements in brocoli florets or just in the seeds?

[WillNitschke]

Brocomax has 30mg of glucoraphanin (apparently) which on a conservative .2 conversion to Sulforaphane = 6mg. The Jarrow product looks good but I'm not a big fan of taking calcium supplementation, but should be OK.

Efficacy studies are in the 20mg to 60mg range, so assuming you're going for the minimum dose, you're up for 4 capsules daily (4 x 6 = 24mg). So 120 capsules is about a month's supply. I can get it for around $50 a bottle in my currency, so not a horrible price, I suppose.

There are bacteria in your gut that should in principle convert glucoraphinin to sulforaphane. How effective this works for you is dependent on the composition of your gut biome. I listened to a talk on this a few weeks ago, and apparently who well that works (if at all?) is widely variable between people.

I'm not taking the seeds because they have other (apparent) toxins in them, that supplement companies have to filter out to cover their arses. So if you don't feel like eating a giant bag of rather bitter tasting broccoli sprouts daily, your only other option looks like broccoli florets. But heat apparently destroys myrosinase, so you need to eat them with another source of myrosinase. (Or eat them raw. I steam them for 3 minutes.) One of the best natural sources of myrosinase being fresh uncooked white raddish. What I've typed here basically sums up the last few pages of discussion.

[WillNitschke]

I found this short video useful for further ideas on how to add sulforaphane to your diet:

[Harkijn]

Actually, many of the subjects touched on in the present thread were discussed in detail before on LC by a wider group of interested posters.

https://www.longecit...irtulins/page-3

[ChristineH]

Following is an email from jarrow.

 

Thank you for your follow up e-mail. The sulforaphane generation takes place in the small intestine.

The capsules are DR (delayed release), so you may be reducing the optimal benefit by opening up the capsules.

 

What did you ask them?  With a time-release capsule, the benefit of sulforaphane in the stomach - as in Helicobacter pylori infection is lost.

[ChristineH]

Brocomax has 30mg of glucoraphanin (apparently) which on a conservative .2 conversion to Sulforaphane = 6mg. The Jarrow product looks good but I'm not a big fan of taking calcium supplementation, but should be OK.

Efficacy studies are in the 20mg to 60mg range, so assuming you're going for the minimum dose, you're up for 4 capsules daily (4 x 6 = 24mg). So 120 capsules is about a month's supply. I can get it for around $50 a bottle in my currency, so not a horrible price, I suppose.

There are bacteria in your gut that should in principle convert glucoraphinin to sulforaphane. How effective this works for you is dependent on the composition of your gut biome. I listened to a talk on this a few weeks ago, and apparently who well that works (if at all?) is widely variable between people.

I'm not taking the seeds because they have other (apparent) toxins in them, that supplement companies have to filter out to cover their arses. So if you don't feel like eating a giant bag of rather bitter tasting broccoli sprouts daily, your only other option looks like broccoli florets. But heat apparently destroys myrosinase, so you need to eat them with another source of myrosinase. (Or eat them raw. I steam them for 3 minutes.) One of the best natural sources of myrosinase being fresh uncooked white raddish. What I've typed here basically sums up the last few pages of discussion.

 

I'm not sure whether you are telling me something - or asking me to comment.  That said, there are 2 things I will say:

 

1. EnduraCell yields 14 mg per 700 mg capsule, so why are you quoting BroccoMax as if it is a standard?
2. Broccoli florets are a poor source of glucoraphanin.  Sprouts contains about 20-100-fold that of the mature vegetable.
3. Any form of heating reduces the myrosinase activity, unless you can keep the temperature under 60 degrees C.  This is not possible to control in a kitchen environment.  I* know you will read otherwise - but this is in a controlled lab environment.
4. The gut microbiota convert GRN to 8-10% the SFN you will obtain from the intact myrosinase-active sprout.  There are no clinical trials obtaining a beneficial disease-related outcome for the myrosinase-inert extracts

[WillNitschke]

Only two comments, "Broccoli florets are a poor source of glucoraphanin." Relative to what? Sprouts may contain 20-100X more than the vegetable, but have you tried eating that volume of very bitter tasting sprouts in in one session?

And, "EnduraCell yields 14 mg per 700 mg capsule" -- sure, maybe it does. But you don't put that on your product's label. Which tells me you're not confident that the dosage you're claiming is in the product, is consistent. If my product was 2X better than the competition, I'd be screaming it from the roof tops, i.e., on your website and your product label. I wouldn't be telling telling people on an internet forum, which is 0000.1% of your customer base.

 

Edited by WillNitschke, 16 June 2019 - 09:35 AM.

[ChristineH]

So, why haven't you asked this until now, instead of making your own judgments and snide remarks?  

 

You're in Australia, so if you research the TGA (Therapeutic Goods Administration) website, you will see that we (Australian companies) are not permitted to add sulforaphane to the label.  That's because there is no sulforaphane in the product; it is produced from the chemical reaction of the myrosinase enzyme on the glucoraphanin precursor when you ingest the product.  The TGA classifies our product as a Complementary Medicine, not a dietary supplement as is the case in the U.S.  As such, these products appear in their own classification and regulated part-way between a dietary supplement and a pharmaceutical.  So with no sulforaphane IN the product, we cannot (of course) claim that it CONTAINS sulforaphane - nor can we provide any variation on the label format.

 

In fact, I am 100% confident that our product delivers what we say it does.  Unlike many of our competitors, we assay EVERY SINGLE BATCH of the raw material we produce.  

 

And let it be said that I really do not appreciate your ongoing nasty slurs!  I thought we had sorted this out in the past. What on earth possesses you to be so nasty - and so conceited?  I doubt that I will  be persuaded to communicate with you any further.  This is supposed to be a forum where members can share.  In spite of the many occasions on which I have laboriously explained aspects of sulforaphane science to you, you seem to behave as if you are an authority on the subject.  You are not!

 

 

[GABAergic]

sulforaphane being NRF2 activator , can also be toxic? from wiki i got this regarding activation of NRF2; Genetic activation of NRF2 may promote the development of de novo cancerous tumors^[32][33] as well as the development of atherosclerosis by raising plasma cholesterol levels and cholesterol content in the liver.^[34] It has been suggested that the latter effect may overshadow the potential benefits of antioxidant induction afforded by NRF2 activation

 

any comments?

[WillNitschke]

So, why haven't you asked this until now, instead of making your own judgments and snide remarks?  

 

You're in Australia, so if you research the TGA (Therapeutic Goods Administration) website, you will see that we (Australian companies) are not permitted to add sulforaphane to the label.  That's because there is no sulforaphane in the product; it is produced from the chemical reaction of the myrosinase enzyme on the glucoraphanin precursor when you ingest the product.  The TGA classifies our product as a Complementary Medicine, not a dietary supplement as is the case in the U.S.  As such, these products appear in their own classification and regulated part-way between a dietary supplement and a pharmaceutical.  So with no sulforaphane IN the product, we cannot (of course) claim that it CONTAINS sulforaphane - nor can we provide any variation on the label format.

 

In fact, I am 100% confident that our product delivers what we say it does.  Unlike many of our competitors, we assay EVERY SINGLE BATCH of the raw material we produce.  

 

And let it be said that I really do not appreciate your ongoing nasty slurs!  I thought we had sorted this out in the past. What on earth possesses you to be so nasty - and so conceited?  I doubt that I will  be persuaded to communicate with you any further.  This is supposed to be a forum where members can share.  In spite of the many occasions on which I have laboriously explained aspects of sulforaphane science to you, you seem to behave as if you are an authority on the subject.  You are not!

 

I can't see the point of you getting "furious" when I point out that the labeling on your product doesn't tell me what I'm getting or even what I might potentially get. I'd have to go back and look at your label again, but I don't waste time on supplements that aren't clear and to the point. Consider that a constructive criticism for your future reference. Being angry that I pointed out the obvious isn't really going to help you sell more product, even if you have world's best product. You sound very upset that I'm not going to automatically believe what a stranger tells me on the internet. Seems to be a rather immature response, sorry.
 

Edited by WillNitschke, 17 June 2019 - 05:13 AM.

[Harkijn]

I hadn't unfollowed this thread so far.

[orion22]

i found somwhere that the sulforaphane its like 2-3 times higher at 48 hours after sprouting than drops 2-3 times after 68 hours does the sulforaphane drop or does the plant volume increase so the chart was showing the percentige compare to plant volume 

[ChristineH]

No.  The max. sulforaphane yield is in the seed and then as the plant grows the precursor and the enzyme are essentially 'diluted'.  This is why we use sprouts over mature broccoli vegetable.  The issue of the '48 hours' is mentioned probably because the seed contains a toxin, erucic acid which is degraded as the seed sprouts.  It is down to safe levels within a few days.  

[orion22]

No.  The max. sulforaphane yield is in the seed and then as the plant grows the precursor and the enzyme are essentially 'diluted'.  This is why we use sprouts over mature broccoli vegetable.  The issue of the '48 hours' is mentioned probably because the seed contains a toxin, erucic acid which is degraded as the seed sprouts.  It is down to safe levels within a few days.  

 find this on you tube Broccoli: Sprouts vs. Supplements at 1.04-1.20 min in video shows the chart the video is NutritionFacts.org chanel 

[ChristineH]

 find this on you tube Broccoli: Sprouts vs. Supplements at 1.04-1.20 min in video shows the chart the video is NutritionFacts.org chanel 

 

Michael Greger has referenced one paper; not all researchers agree with this.  It will depend on numerous aspects of the growing conditions - quality of the seed, temperature, light, water content and so on.

[GABAergic]

No.  The max. sulforaphane yield is in the seed and then as the plant grows the precursor and the enzyme are essentially 'diluted'.  This is why we use sprouts over mature broccoli vegetable.  The issue of the '48 hours' is mentioned probably because the seed contains a toxin, erucic acid which is degraded as the seed sprouts.  It is down to safe levels within a few days.  

 

so since broccomax contains extract from seed, its likely to contain the toxin too?

[ChristineH]

so since broccomax contains extract from seed, its likely to contain the toxin too?

 

I'm not privy to their process but I expect that when they extract the glucoraphanin from the seed, the erucic acid is also removed.  But you would best to ask the manufacturers of TrueBroc, the extract ingredient.