40 replies to this topic

[tradewinds]

We recognize that this is a turning point for the nootropic and supplement sub-forums for the Immortality Institute.

Edward/LifeMirage deleted several posts including those previously sent for approval by Leadership.

We recognize this and we will be re-issuing a formal statement within the next seven days.

We currently stand behind the Immortality Institute and its current sponsor Relentless Improvement, because they certify the purity and safety of their products.

We are pleased to compete on the same principles going forward. Hopefully other companies whom carry several low quality and/or contaminated products will see the importance of certified purity.

[FunkOdyssey]

There are no shortage of studies demonstrating cognitive enhancement from nootropics. What I would like to see is more objective reporting of the research. LM compiled abstracts of almost every positive nootropic study -- I'd like to see ALL the studies together for each substance, negative studies or those showing no effect included.

[uniquenutrition]

We recognize that this is a turning point for the nootropic and supplement sub-forums for the Immortality Institute.

Edward/LifeMirage deleted several posts including those previously sent for approval by Leadership.

We recognize this and we will be re-issuing a formal statement within the next seven days.

We currently stand behind the Immortality Institute and its current sponsor Relentless Improvement, because they certify the purity and safety of their products.

We are pleased to compete on the same principles going forward. Hopefully other companies whom carry several low quality and/or contaminated products will see the importance of certified purity.

Adam (and/or an obviously representative for Adam) you did the same thing when you were banned. Why don't you list your address on your website? Also why has the BBB never heard you you? Your not even a real business are you?

Steve

[mitkat]

Adam has had his address listed in public view at all times, you can see it on the splash page at http://www.nootropikshop.com. He is also packaging and shipping his products from an FDA-registered facility, which is a lot more than most of the nootropic community can say.

[kevink]

I find it a bit offensive that Adam (or his agent) is banned, but allowed to post here basically drumming up traffic for his web site or noot sales.

Until the "wounds" have healed, perhaps Adam can show some restraint and not swoop down like a vulture for his claim of the carcass.

How about this unconventional approach - Adam petitions to be un-banned from ImmInst. Then he spends a long time being a valuable member of the community and building up faith and trust the old fashioned way…by earning it.

Pete from RelentlessImprovement has a very loyal following on this board (and across the world), has 99% of the time been a "good" member of the community, and for all intents and purposes simply tries to use his maturity and life skills to provide a quality business that generates income from repeat customers. That model seems to be working and is simple enough - but somehow seems to elude many of the other players in this arena.

[xanadu]

I agree with kevink. I also agree with Steve that tradewinds was another of Adam's puppet names along with brizzadizza and many others. I have no grudge against Adam though he has attacked me on occasion. He does seem extremely manipulative. I like seeing more competition in the noot marketplace because it leads to higher quality and lower prices for the consumer. It also leads to more choices. I think funk is also correct in that it would be good to see more studies that have been done on the various supplements. LM's list was strictly positive results and we know that no matter how good something is, there will be a study or two that shows no results or negative results.

[tradewinds]

I have made it very clear in my time here that I am acting as a representative for Adam and nootropikshop.com. This is not new information. When I post a message from Adam, he sends it to at least one member of Leadership before I even see it. I have as much right to post here as you do, Kevin, and I have never been banned. How about instead of attacking us, you let past grudges go and thank Adam for exposing the epic Lifemirage/Unique Nutrition fraud that has silently plagued this forum for so long. The following is a message from Adam Kamil.

-----

Concerned readers: I run all statements through several members of
ImmInst Leadership before having them posted here on my behalf by my
company spokesperson.

I deliberately do not list my complete address on my webstore because
I am worried about criminals such as Steve Sliwa and Edward/LifeMirage
knowing my home address; they may come to try to take revenge on me for taking
part in revealing the truth behind their elaborate scam.

We all know how far Edward AKA "LifeMirage" and Steve Sliwa
("uniquenutrition") will go to mislead ImmInst members; if you were
not already aware, be sure to read the Summary of Events, The
LifeMirage episode (a Mind Production):

http://www.imminst.o...T&f=1&t=9604&s=

I am a Verified PayPal vendor; and any PayPal member interested in
my "Reputation" can always enter the following into their browser to
view nootropikreation's Reputation status (BBB is unnecessary for me
to propagate my online business; I have sold products to 46 verified
buyers and counting…PayPal's Reputation is far more reliable for
online vendors than BBB, if you did not know that already):

https://www.paypal.c...m...l@gmail.com

Steve: we caught you and your co-conspirator LifeMirage lying in this
public forum and everyone here is well aware of that fact. I tried to warn
ImmInst Leadership a year ago that you lack integrity and furthermore
perform zero quality assurance testing on your imported products; we
also all know that Uniquenutrition products are thus likely low in quality
and high in contaminants -- or, in some cases, possibly even 100% counterfeit;
if your attempt to sponsor this forum succeeded, it only would have
only sullied ImmInst's reputation. It is rather unfortunate for Par
Dues(?) as he has formally associated with you; fortunately, however, for
those of us here, we uncovered your
commercial-interest-coordinated-corruption and our Leadership is
acting vigilantely to move forward.

Pete from Relentless Improvement carried your questionable wares for a
short little while until he discovered you are a fraud and stepped
forward to ensure the safety of the members of the Institute by
Independently testing his nootropics. Unfortunately, LifeMirage and
Sliwa's propaganda temporarily kept Pete's achievements out of the
public eye. I sincerely hope nobody's life was endangered by ingesting
Uniquenutrition's questionable and perhaps deadly nootropic brand.

kevink: you do not support the Immortality Institute whatsoever as a
basic member therefore your comments are hypocritical. Even though my
membership is currently suspended, I still support the Institute and
its mission. I admire the Institute's first film production: Exploring
Life Extension; it is quite an amazing accomplishment. Perhaps if you
were to become a full member I (and others) could take your criticism
more seriously.

It is totally irrelevant that I brought forward the evidence that led
to the discovery that LifeMirage and Steve Sliwa (uniquenutrition)
were fraudulently operating in collusion to increase sales of low
quality and potentially deadly products throughout this (and other)
forums.

I do not live (or operate my business) for you kevink,
Edward/"LifeMirage", Steve Slimeball, or for anybody else's sake for
that matter. If I did not bring forward the evidence I did, when I
did, then you, ImmInst Full Members, and Leadership would still be
operating under the false pretenses that "LifeMirage" is a respected
MD by the name of "Lee Crost", and Steve Sliwa is an honorable,
trustworthy individual. It is merely coincidental that the evidence
fell right into my lap, and I notified Leadership as any individual
whom knows me knows I do not tolerate fraud or lies.

Not that sequence matters, but just in case you did not know, I was
selling nootropics before Relentless Improvement, and was the first
nootropic company to perform Independent analysis on these imported
products (someone please prove me wrong). Furthermore, I was first to
rant (to the point of excess) about the importance of Independent
testing as a consumer in this market since Spring 2004 and contributed
(thanks to influence of Micheal Rae and others) to heated debates on
the topic. As a consumer I randomly and independently assayed
idebenone and aniracetam by HPLC and pyritinol, l-carnosine, and
oxiracetam and presented the results here as a public service so other
consumers could potentially benefit.

I am also proud to be the first citizen of the United States of
America to ever be confronted by the (California) Food and Drug
Administration (California is the only state with its own FDA) that
nootropics are NOT effective and prove that this is not quite the
case.

Yes, the government shut my company June 21, 2005- January 23, 2006;
however, all 9 charges were dropped; and furthermore, all products
were returned to me six months later.

Apparently kevink in the interim, you joined this forum; so you may be
unaware of my (sometimes contraversial and yes, rude) history here.
October 16, 2005? Yes, just as you were being brainwashed by
LifeMirage and Sliwa propaganda starting Summer 2005. Apparently
their scam worked. That is, until I helped to change that.

"A valuable member of this community?" Are you saying that helping to
disabuse you and Leadership of the fraudulent activities of Edward
Younan and Steve Slima is not a valuable contribution? If not, then
please tell me what a valuable member does and point me in their
direction.

Thank you.

My formal statement is still forthcoming.

Take care,

Adam D. Kamil

Edited by tradewinds, 08 March 2006 - 09:41 AM.

[kevink]

I don't care what's going on with Adam, leadership, LifeMirage, Steve, etc. That wasn't the point. And let's be clear - a banned member being allowed to post by way of an intermidiary is ridiculous and breaks any definition of "banned" that I've ever heard of.

1) Adam's banned status was publicly mentioned many times by ImmInst Leadership. Given the public statements made by several ImmInst Leaders, his past history was so egregious, they did not trust him or his evidence at first. This implies that the ban was not lifted. Don't get all in a huff because I state the obvious - a banned member should not be posting on the forum.

2) It would seem a definition of "banned" is in order. Only ImmInst Leadership can provide such a definition since it's "their" organization to run. Adam seems to think that because he helped bring some information to the surface, it means he's free and clear. Under such reasoning, a serial killer exposing a corrupt warden, would be reason to free him on the spot. I don't think so, and that’s MY opinion.

If ImmInst wants to un-ban Adam...I have no problem with that. But a cooperative organization like this is only as strong as it's "laws". There is little room for "half in-half out" decisions and policies. That type of behavior seems highly subjective, subject to cronyism, and does not speak well for how things will be handled in the future. Corporations set rules and regulations like governments set laws - if you start bending or selectively applying them, it only serves to weaken the base stability and credibility.

I imagine ImmInst Leadership (at east some of them) are well aware of the essence of what I'm saying and taking the appropriate measures.

3) Basic or Full member? Saying basic members do not support ImmInst and implying that they are not valued members of the community is asinine. Certainly such an arrogant and divisive position would have a negative impact on recruitment. So where do "Full" members come from? Probably many come from basic members that join the community and proceed to EVALUATE the organization, its Leadership and other members. Comments made by several Leaders about Life Extension priorities and the overall use of resources has me about to become a Full Member - I'm very sorry Adam's stack caused "issues", but let's move beyond that and see how the "new" Adam behaves. Creating a rift between basic and full members is NOT a good indication of a smart "team" player.

I believe my position is in the institute’s best interest. If you do not, that’s OK by me since it’s MY opinion. My statement applies to any banned or suspended member and I in no way retract it. How either of you can somehow feel insulted that I take issue with a banned person being allowed to 3rd party post, promote HIS website and increase HIS nootropic sales is laughable.

Either there's a ban or there's not. What gives with this "maybe not today" nonsense.

I do not wish to waste any more time on this issue.

[jaydfox]

Actually, this issue of bannedness (pronunciation? band*ness? ban*ned*ness? just stick with banishment?) does need some refinement.

Adam is banned, and it is unfair for so many of his posts to get passed through the veil like this. He has been helpful in bringing LifeMirage's fraud to light, so he was cut some slack, but the issue is exposed now.

As for unbanning Adam, I'm not against a formal petition being made. There's demonstrable improvement in his demeanor, and his detective skills show an attention to detail.

Admittedly, the timing isn't going to look good, given that Steve and Adam are competing in this market, and Steve's about to get the boot. But that isn't a good reason not to let Adam back in.

There is the issue of moderation, however. If Adam's ban is lifted, he will need to be moderated for a period of time. So far, I don't believe a leader has stepped up and agreed to be the moderator. Adam's energies might better be spent in securing a willing leader, rather than continuing to post through intermediaries in contravention of the ban.

[FunkOdyssey]

How either of you can somehow feel insulted that I take issue with a banned person being allowed to 3rd party post, promote HIS website and increase HIS nootropic sales is laughable.

lol... yeah, that is actually pretty funny

[xanadu]

jaydfox wrote:

"Admittedly, the timing isn't going to look good, given that Steve and Adam are competing in this market, and Steve's about to get the boot. But that isn't a good reason not to let Adam back in"

Everything seems to be decided by innuendo. LM was convicted based on a phone call but faxed documents were disregarded because someone said photoshop might have been used. You couldn't convict someone of a parking ticket based on a phone call. Then, Steve is going to be banned because he supported LM? Now supporting a member suspected of wrong doing is reason to ban them? However, those supporting Adam face no such sanction. In fact, Adam is apparently going to be reinstated based on:

"As for unbanning Adam, I'm not against a formal petition being made. There's demonstrable improvement in his demeanor, and his detective skills show an attention to detail."

Does "demonstrable improvement in his demeanor" refer to the text that others posted on his behalf?

I'm not sure if Alice in Wonderland is the logic for these things or maybe the Twilight Zone. I have nothing against Adam being allowed to peddle his goods here. I do not see any reason to ban Steve. What has he done wrong? It seems like things are decided in private and then reasons are made up later on. Naturally no money has changed hands to influence any of this.

[simple]

It should be observed that the situation of Adam Kamil should be decided at this point by the directive of IMMINST, but definitively some measure should be set to prevent this type of situations from happening again.

I, personally would not have a problem going for a full disclosure of my presona, as long as my information was kept private and away from other members. I f everybody were to be requested the same upon joining the Imminst, this kind of problems would not happen so easily.

[FunkOdyssey]

I, personally would not have a problem going for a full disclosure of my presona, as long as my information was kept private and away from other members. I f everybody were to be requested the same upon joining the Imminst, this kind of problems would not happen so easily.

I wouldn't have a problem with that either. The Morelife yahoo group requires you to scan or fax a copy of your driver's license to the moderator before you can post, as well as set up a yahoo profile that includes a picture and bio. Sounds extreme, but they don't have a troll in sight.

[simple]

Nowadays I would not consider that to be too extreme, by the way my name is Ismael

[jaydfox]

Everything seems to be decided by innuendo. LM was convicted based on a phone call but faxed documents were disregarded because someone said photoshop might have been used.

I'm really trying to refrain from using explitives at this point.

Who cares if photo ID was faxed? If I wanted to pretend to be Bruce Klein, and I had a stolen copy of his ID, I could fax it to you. If you called Novamente, the company Bruce works for, and asked to talk to Bruce, and he emphatically denies being me, and he thinks his ID could have been stolen or copied, then what should you believe:

A) I'm really Bruce, because I have his photo ID. You talked to an imposter at Novamente.
B) You actually talked to Bruce, and I'm the imposter, possibly using a stolen ID.

It's not complicated, really. I don't know why people go to such great lengths to defend this guy. It's like you deeply want to believe that ImmInst leadership did something wrong, because the "establishment" is always abusing its power...

Then, Steve is going to be banned because he supported LM? Now supporting a member suspected of wrong doing is reason to ban them?

No, if Steve is going to be banned, it's because he and LifeMirage are sharing accounts and lying for each other, and our intent is to ban LifeMirage and any related aliases. Steve is being given the opportunity to clear this matter up; if he decides to keep spinning his bullshit stories, he'll get the boot.

[DJS]

Xanadu

Now supporting a member suspected of wrong doing is reason to ban them?

Your logic is flawed Xanadu, and you know it. If members were suspended for this reason you would have been given the boot long ago. ImmInst leadership attempt to go by the books at all costs, even when doing so is a tedious, boring mess.

Naturally no money has changed hands to influence any of this.

Yes, its one huge conspiracy. I guess you'd like to believe that ImmInst has decided to whore itself out for Adam Kamil. [wis] There are two options here: your motives are insincere, or your analytical abilities are flawed. Either way it doesn't bode well for my perception of you.

(Note: If this had anything to do with money, then ImmInst would be a fool to favor Adam over Steve. We all know who has the more successful business.)

[DJS]

I guess you'd like to believe that ImmInst has decided to whore itself out for Adam Kamil.

And if there is the possibility of whoring going on here, then the most likely source would be you, Xanadu. What kind of discounts has Steve been giving you lately? Wouldn't want your supply to be threatened now, would you?

[jaydfox]

go by the books at all costs, even when doing so is a tedious, boring mess.

My god, it is tedious. There has been quite a bit of grumbling by more than one leader over the tediousness of this. Here's a direct quote from Caliban, from the vote to suspend the Nootropics Advisor position:
http://www.imminst.o...120

I'm sure if we all try very hard we can make this even more tedious.

[xanadu]

Watch out, da sense, logical thought like that is not favored here. It makes too much sense.

"I do not wish to fight, I'm just asking for all the EVIDENCE, NOT SPECULATIONS, regarding all this mess."

Very well said! Unfortunately, there is no evidence, only speculation and lots of that. The so called proof of LM is a phone call. It only indicates, not proves, that he may not have the MD degree he claimed. That may be grounds to kick him out of leadership but not to ban him. Show me where in the rules for this site that claiming an advanced degree and not having it is grounds for banning? The rules get made up as we go along.

Now I'm suspected of being LM just as Steve is? And the broad hint that I'm getting discounts from UN is my motive? Obviously, saying I've never bought from UN isn't going to carry any weight with people who already have their minds made up. The only one mentioned on these boards that I've bought from is Bulk Nutrition and one that is no longer around. I've been charged the going rate, got no discounts but did get a freebie or two with some of my orders from BN. I've plugged them a few times because I like their prices and the quality from what I can see is good. Does that mean that BN is now part of the conspiracy with LM/Steve? I've never even ordered from Steve or Sherwyn's. I doubt seriously Steve would give me any discount and I'm sure LM would not. Believe what you like.

jaydfox wrote:

"No, if Steve is going to be banned, it's because he and LifeMirage are sharing accounts and lying for each other, and our intent is to ban LifeMirage and any related aliases. "

So you admit your mind is made up about LM and indicate that it's made up about Steve as well. I guess some excuse will be found to ban me since I ask too many embarrassing questions. Luckily, I am not selling anything on this board. I expected more fairness and even headedness from a group like this. I will say that most of the members seem fair and logical so maybe I am talking about leadership.

What rule exactly did LM break to deserve banning?

[tradewinds]

Why should Adam go about finding someone to moderate his posts when the ban is still in place? How about if the vote is passed to remove the ban, then he find a member of leadership to moderate his posts. When Adam was banned for being blatently rude and for making ad hominem attacks he never lied or misled leadership. Lets make that clear.

http://www.imminst.o...f=198&t=5736&s=

Adam has used a company spokesperson for several posts, this is not new. Speaking on behalf of this company is different than him speaking. While we certainly understand that this is an issue, Adam has contributed to this community in more ways than one. Besides removing corrupt members of leadership, he also offers products of the highest purity.

I am a paid representative who speaks on behalf of Adam's company. I am not Adam Kamil. I am not banned. Therefore, Adam Kamil is not posting here, and he will not make any statements. I will be speaking on behalf of Adams company.

Thank you very much.

[opales]

If LM is really who he claimed to be I'm for ban too. Why? He misleaded many people here, including me that he's some top notch MD who has been working in hospital and prescribed many drugs to many of his patients. It leads people to belive his advices.
Even if all his advices were nothing but the best he still deserves a ban. Pretending that you're doctor and advising people what drugs to take is criminal.

da sense, as has been pointed out, the scenario Steve and LifeMirage purport now is that LifeMirage is a person who has an MD but is not actually licensed doctor and is working in an over-the-counter health food store. So even AT BEST there never were any patients or hospital or practise. So in that sense he lied in any case.

[ajnast4r]

why is leadership here approving posts from a banned member?

[opales]

Watch out, da sense, logical thought like that is not favored here. It makes too much sense.

"I do not wish to fight, I'm just asking for all the EVIDENCE, NOT SPECULATIONS, regarding all this mess."

Very well said! Unfortunately, there is no evidence, only speculation and lots of that. The so called proof of LM is a phone call. It only indicates, not proves, that he may not have the MD degree he claimed. That may be grounds to kick him out of leadership but not to ban him. Show me where in the rules for this site that claiming an advanced degree and not having it is grounds for banning? The rules get made up as we go along.

Now I'm suspected of being LM just as Steve is? And the broad hint that I'm getting discounts from UN is my motive? Obviously, saying I've never bought from UN isn't going to carry any weight with people who already have their minds made up. The only one mentioned on these boards that I've bought from is Bulk Nutrition and one that is no longer around. I've been charged the going rate, got no discounts but did get a freebie or two with some of my orders from BN. I've plugged them a few times because I like their prices and the quality from what I can see is good. Does that mean that BN is now part of the conspiracy with LM/Steve? I've never even ordered from Steve or Sherwyn's. I doubt seriously Steve would give me any discount and I'm sure LM would not. Believe what you like.

jaydfox wrote:

"No, if Steve is going to be banned, it's because he and LifeMirage are sharing accounts and lying for each other, and our intent is to ban LifeMirage and any related aliases. "

So you admit your mind is made up about LM and indicate that it's made up about Steve as well. I guess some excuse will be found to ban me since I ask too many embarrassing questions. Luckily, I am not selling anything on this board. I expected more fairness and even headedness from a group like this. I will say that most of the members seem fair and logical so maybe I am talking about leadership.

What rule exactly did LM break to deserve banning?

xanadu your definition of substantial evidence clearly aparts from most everyone else's in this board as can been seen from the last 200 posts you have made, of which maybe only 20 are related to this LM issue. Unfortunately, even before this LifeMirage incident I have had to conclude that you only require that impossible amount of evidence for the views you do not share, despite how little evidence you have for your own view to begin with.

Anyway, an short excursion to wikipedia's law section would do everyone good, here are some relevant links:

http://en.wikipedia....antial_evidence

A popular misconception is that circumstantial evidence is less valid or less important than direct evidence. This is only partly true: direct evidence is generally considered more powerful, but successful criminal prosecutions often rely largely on circumstantial evidence, and civil charges are frequently based on circumstantial or indirect evidence. In practice, circumstantial evidence often has an advantage over direct evidence in that it is more difficult to suppress or fabricate

http://en.wikipedia....rating_evidence

[xanadu]

I asked what rule LM broke and no one seems to be able to answer that or point me to where the rule is written. Opales, you now say that LM may indeed have his MD but that doesn't count anymore. You guys really should get your story straight. Is he going to be banned for not having an MD or because he does have an MD but isn't a practicing doctor? I just wish somebody could explain exactly what LM did wrong and what the proof is. Jaydfox says it's because of a phone call. He says the faxed documents are fakes. How does he know they are fakes? Because of the phone call, everything comes back to the phone call.

He isn't allowed to defend himself anymore. I'm told he "had his chance" to defend himself and blew it. That's like in a criminal trial where the defendant is only allowed to put on half his defense and the prosecution is encouraged to rant and make emotional accusations against the defendant. You won't let him post anymore and the verdict hasn't even been rendered. In effect, he has already been banned. That's why I pointed out that you had punishment first, verdict later and if you have time for it much later, you might get the bottom of all the evidence. Meanwhile, he's been banned for a number of days now.

I just feel sorry for the underdog, I guess that's my motivation. I saw a guy trying to do good. I never saw him saying he was a doctor. I never recall him recommending just certain companies though he did seem to like Pete at Relentless. He spoke up for pete many times. I saw a guy who was donating his time and got no obvious payoff from it. Then I saw him get pilloried, tarred and feathered before any proof was shown at all. His proof was scoffed at and soon as the phone call was made, he is banned or 12 hours later, something like that. I just thought it was unfair because I believe in due process. There was an explanation given about the phone conversations. It may be that LM on the board is not the same as the one who has the MD but I don't know. He did ask that no one call him at work and his request was not honored, it was violated. He might be fired if he gets a lot of personal calls at work, he may have been told about that before and warned. Denying everything may have been his reaction to save his job, I don't know.

Even if he does not have an MD, that is no reason to ban him. He is a lifetime member. I'm just trying to think how I would feel if I had donated $500 to an organisation, donated my time and effort to help and then been treated like this. I'm trying to imagine how I would feel in that situation. You took away his lofty position as advisor and now you want to pocket his $500, ignore his many valid contributions and ban him all the while making personal attacks against him. Adam might have a reason to want LM gone. What are the rest of his attackers reasons?

When I see something that's unfair, I speak up. Banning LM is not fair.

[rfarris]

I'm just trying to think how I would feel if I had donated $500 to an organisation...

[snicker]

[xanadu]

I don't think you would snicker if it happened to you, rfarris. Or am I supposed to be LM now? The witch trial is really gaining steam.