19 replies to this topic

[experimenting]

Hi all.

 

For years I'd been battling an undiagnosed Vitamin D deficiency-21ng/ml. I have dark skin and work in Northern latitudes, so hardly get any sunlight and my ethnicity doesn't help.

 

I started on 10000iu/day about 4 months ago and it has had remarkable effects on my health. Better (and less required) sleep, much better body composition, mild antidepressive effects...decreased neuropathy...the list goes on. 

 

Just had a follow-up blood test and my D levels were 340 nmol/l so roughly 136 ng/ml which is way in overdose territory apparently. I'd had no ill effects and my calcium levels were in the normal range so no issues at all.

 

Am I:

 

1) At risk of serious toxicity?

2) Simply wasting money as I am more than sufficient?

3) Actually taking a therapeutic dose of Vitamin D, that just hasn't been recognized by the medical community yet?

 

I'm loathe to reduce the dose of a substance that has helped me so much. Humbly seeking your advice.

 

 

[aconita]

Vitamin D3 at 10000iu/day is quite a high dosage, in your case likely a good choice because of your low starting levels but now I can't see no reason anymore.

 

Your levels are above range, very likely you don't need to keep them so high in order to feel good, actually it is likely that in the long run they will backfire on you.

 

I suggest to try 2500IU/day (which isn't low anyway) for a while and to repeat a blood test in a month or so (consider that being vitamin D liposoluble it "sticks" to you fatty tissues for quite a while before dropping, in other words your vitamin D levels will not drop overnight).

 

If you still have 10000IU doses left don't worry, because vitamin D levels don't fluctuate in a few days to take 10000IU everyday or 70000IU once a week makes no difference, therefore in order to get 2500IU/day just take 10000IU once every fourth day.

 

According to your next blood test adjust the daily amount, maybe lowering to 10000IU once a week or whatever and test again after one or two months.

 

Aim to be in range, I seriously doubt you'll lose the well being you are experiencing even if to stay in range means only 1000IU/day or less.

 

Usually is good practice to couple vitamin K2 (MK4 or MK7) with vitamin D3 for better and safer calcium management. 

 

[RWhigham]

The official worry with high Vit-D3 levels is that over long periods it might cause calcium deposits in arteries. This can be prevented by simultaneously taking Vitamin K2 which is available as MK7 or MK4. I would take both forms. 

 

Edited by RWhigham, 19 August 2017 - 04:08 AM.

[experimenting]

Hey, yes in fact I do just that, the LEF K mix, hence why my calcium levels were actually on the low end, I suspect. Cholesterol had improved as well.

 

So am I at risk at 10000iu, + K, or is it just a waste of money. Thing is, it feels so good...

[aconita]

In the long run you might be at risk staying out of range.

[pamojja]

So am I at risk at 10000iu, + K, or is it just a waste of money. Thing is, it feels so good...

 

The other thing is, we need different amounts at different times too. Think about this sunny summer..

 

I experimented with different doses to keep my 25(OH)D serum level above 60 ng/dl for the last 9 years, it took in average 8.800 IU every day for me to stay there. With lower doses, like 3.000 IU/d, I immediately dropped below 50 ng/dl again (and that was on a tropical beach).
 

Now in your case with only 1.200 IU/d more than I take, gave you already more than double my serum levels in a very short time. If I would be you, I would take half your dose and retest after some months again. Otherwise you simply couldn't find out, if you still would feel so good at a robust but more physiologic dose.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Keep in mind that there's more to sunlight than just vitamin D, so vitamin D will not make you feel like you're back in a country with a strong sun. It just won't be the same, lack of sunlight will always be depressing and cause fatigue, no matter the vitamin D.

[amar7]

Exactly, I E-Mailed Prof. Holick once about the subject on arterial calcification and the k2 connection, he said he heard about it, so it could work, but he doesn't know for sure. As much as I heard about Vitamin D high dose benefits, I'd stay away from megadose and try to keep steady blood levels. IMO 5000IU is a high enough dosage. It should be good enough while avoiding possible drawbacks.

[bluemoon]

Exactly, I E-Mailed Prof. Holick once about the subject on arterial calcification and the k2 connection, he said he heard about it, so it could work, but he doesn't know for sure. As much as I heard about Vitamin D high dose benefits, I'd stay away from megadose and try to keep steady blood levels. IMO 5000IU is a high enough dosage. It should be good enough while avoiding possible drawbacks.

 

A study published last year showed that 163 so patients with heart failure and an ejection fraction (EF) of 26% who took 4000 IU of Vitamin D3 for a year had an  improvement to 34%, where 50% to 70% is often considered normal - some sources say 55% is normal. Vitamin D3 at that amount could maybe help prevent someone at 45% from dropping lower although not yet demonstrated.

 

From BBC News:

 

"It's as cheap as chips, has no side effects and a stunning improvement on people already on optimal medical therapy, it is the first time anyone has shown something like this in the last 15 years."

 

The study also showed the patients' hearts became smaller - a suggestion they are becoming more powerful and efficient.

 

http://www.bbc.com/n...health-35959556

[Daniel Cooper]

As mentioned above, always take with K2.

 

 

 

[Multivitz]

You've all run out of iodine, boron, magnesium, p5p, zinc, k2, to name a few. D3 is potent, is makes the body use up stuff fast. It's OD symptoms are similar to it's deficiency symptoms, and to many other nutrient deficiencies.
Minerals rule with cofactors. Quarter dose everything and identify companion nutrients, the more natural the better. Hope this helps.

[Daniel Cooper]

Multivitz - it seems no matter what thread you post in, it's all about the iodine and boron.

 

Is there anything these two can't do?

 

 

 

[pamojja]

The other thing is, we need different amounts at different times too. Think about this sunny summer..

 

I experimented with different doses to keep my 25(OH)D serum level above 60 ng/dl for the last 9 years, it took in average 8.800 IU every day for me to stay there. With lower doses, like 3.000 IU/d, I immediately dropped below 50 ng/dl again (and that was on a tropical beach).

 

Interestingly, now it's myself with over-dose 25(OH)D3 serum levels .  And that after 8 years experience with testing (year - avg. intake in mcg - 25(OH)D serum levels):

Year mcg ng/ml

2009  50
2010 160 63 
2011 240 43
2012 300 62 (chronic bronchitis)
2013 200 84 
2014 190 50 
2015 210 78 
2016 170 72 
2017 220 79 (tested Apr. 25th)
Oct.9.   135 
Oct.17.  111

Analyzing recent intakes: took more than usual from Apr. to June and Sept (240 mcg), less from July to Aug and Oct again (210 mcg).

The results from Oct. 9th have been lost and therefore retested a week later. However, a technician could retrieve the results from databases. What's really remarkable is the drop in 24 ng/ml in just one week!

 

With the times of higher intakes suggests levels might have been much, much higher. Serum Calcium in the middle of normal, liver enzymes on the upper end of normal (already improving 10 points in avg. the week later), highest TSH since many years (3.3), while fT3 remaining below normal, and with 631 ng/dl highest total testosterone since testing these years (before in average 350). Also highest SHBG with 122 nmol/l, already dropping to 109 the week later. Resting heard-rate lowered for the first time to 72 (before 77 in avg.) Lowest inflammation markers in long times. Not that I actually felt anything different, other than experimenting.

 

 

PS: Also had about 6mg K1, 22mg K2-mk4, 0.6mg K2-mk7, about 24.000 IU preformed vitamin A, and about 2.4g of elemental Mg each day this year (beside all other co-factors mentioned by Multivits).

Edited by pamojja, 07 November 2017 - 12:01 PM.

[dazed1]

Magnesium is a must with D3, otherwise calcium might be a problem. K from food is sufficient, especially if you add fat to your meals.

[experimenting]

 

The other thing is, we need different amounts at different times too. Think about this sunny summer..

 

I experimented with different doses to keep my 25(OH)D serum level above 60 ng/dl for the last 9 years, it took in average 8.800 IU every day for me to stay there. With lower doses, like 3.000 IU/d, I immediately dropped below 50 ng/dl again (and that was on a tropical beach).

 

Interestingly, now it's myself with over-dose 25(OH)D3 serum levels .  And that after 8 years experience with testing (year - avg. intake in mcg - 25(OH)D serum levels):

Year mcg ng/ml

2009  50
2010 160 63 
2011 240 43
2012 300 62 (chronic bronchitis)
2013 200 84 
2014 190 50 
2015 210 78 
2016 170 72 
2017 220 79 (tested Apr. 25th)
Oct.9.   135 
Oct.17.  111

Analyzing recent intakes: took more than usual from Apr. to June and Sept (240 mcg), less from July to Aug and Oct again (210 mcg).

The results from Oct. 9th have been lost and therefore retested a week later. However, a technician could retrieve the results from databases. What's really remarkable is the drop in 24 ng/ml in just one week!

 

With the times of higher intakes suggests levels might have been much, much higher. Serum Calcium in the middle of normal, liver enzymes on the upper end of normal (already improving 10 points in avg. the week later), highest TSH since many years (3.3), while fT3 remaining below normal, and with 631 ng/dl highest total testosterone since testing these years (before in average 350). Also highest SHBG with 122 nmol/l, already dropping to 109 the week later. Resting heard-rate lowered for the first time to 72 (before 77 in avg.) Lowest inflammation markers in long times. Not that I actually felt anything different, other than experimenting.

 

 

PS: Also had about 6mg K1, 22mg K2-mk4, 0.6mg K2-mk7, about 24.000 IU preformed vitamin A, and about 2.4g of elemental Mg each day this year (beside all other co-factors mentioned by Multivits).

 

 

We seem to be similar in that we're both very sensitive to Vitamin D-just like you if I miss a few days I feel it. Haven't gotten tested but I suspect my levels crater quickly. And I feel overdose symptoms quickly too so it's important for me to target the exact right dose.

 

I seem to have found it: 7000 iu. At this level I get the fat burning/muscle sparing benefits (I assume testosterone-related) but no pruritis/hard-to-explain feelings (hormonal). Vitamin K seems a must as well.

 

So my regimen is now:

 

2000iu upon waking (to get that immediate boost)

5000iu after breakfast (I now have the LEF 1000iu and 5000iu softgels)

LEF Super K mix

 

Anything else you recommend? Minerals really bust my gut so I'm suspicious of magnesium etc unless absolutely necessary

[pamojja]

Anything else you recommend? Minerals really bust my gut so I'm suspicious of magnesium etc unless absolutely necessary

 

In my case developed a serious Mg deficiency by all that mobilization from vitamin D. Now need above 2 g/d oral ELEMENTAL magnesium per day, just do avoid very painful muscle-cramps.

 

At least get a RBC magnesium test, whole blood would be second best, to not be unprepared. Different individuals tolerate different Mg compounds differently. So do test, for example Mg glycinate or malate, which are usually better tolerated.
 

Edited by pamojja, 29 November 2017 - 06:09 PM.

[kurdishfella]

The bigger you are the more water and weight you have which means you need a higher dose to overdose on fat soluble vitamins since you have a lot of fat it can be stored in or if water soluble your body has more water to rid of it fast

Edited by kurdishfella, 18 April 2021 - 12:19 PM.

[kurdishfella]

Crazy theory but if a person took, say 50k IU at once and overdosed. But then took 100k IU and nothing happened. I believe because your enzymes are limited so it never gets broken down and the influx of such high dosage most of it gets covered and passed before it can be absorbed. 

[syr_]

Crazy theory but if a person took, say 50k IU at once and overdosed. But then took 100k IU and nothing happened.

You won't get any toxicity with a single 100K IU dose - you would need to take that for a week or more.
Up to 30k IU *daily* have been reported to be safe. The UL is wrong even in lab ranges (needs 200ng+ for real toxicity).
 
Microsoft PowerPoint - Heaney Vit D_Deficiency 1110 [Read-Only] (vitamindsociety.org)
 

I believe because your enzymes are limited so it never gets broken down and the influx of such high dosage most of it gets covered and passed before it can be absorbed.

I think you are also right on this. IME the first 5k IU of the quantity I take daily goes to the trash, and I'm careful to not take all fat-soluble vits at once, which compete with each other.

Edited by syr_, 05 February 2022 - 03:59 PM.

[johnhemming]

My personal experience is that unprocessed D3 disrupts my metabolism.   If we look at the D3->25OHD->1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol metabolic pathway 25OHD is likely to be safe.  We don't know about D3, but my own tests find it harms sleep.  Why I don't know, but I have it as something to be minimised.

Edited by johnhemming, 05 February 2022 - 05:29 PM.