10 replies to this topic

[foff1335]

Do anyone knows the answer here why tianeptine alleviates my chronic fatigue?? Once In the past I did take it and one pill even one, did made me feel very euphoric/ I get that "I want to live, I am at the top" feeling and alleviated my fatigue which was not responding to any medications none of supplements and nootropics did make that fatigue go away except tianeptine. What is the action of mechanism of tianeptine which makes fatigue go away? I am on zoloft now but it didn't improved my mood such as tianeptine. I also take abilify for auditory hallucinations. Do abilify would affect that mechanism how tianeptine works for me??

[Mind_Paralysis]

Tianeptine works through several mechanisms, you have to look at the mechanisms and then at what your symptoms are, and how they might relate.

 

Right, so you have chronic fatigue and SCHIZOPHRENIA (auditory hallucinations are a sure sign of this) ... are you SURE it's fatigue, and not something called Anhedonia? Anhedonic depression is often a state induced either by negative symptoms, or from malicious auditory hallucinations, in people with Schizophrenia. It's a feeling of there not being any point to anything, and nothing can entice you to do stuff, since it doesn't mean anything.

 

Well, if it IS Anhedonia, then Tianeptine does indeed treat it! Tianeptine is a stimulating antidepressant, which works by the following mechanisms:

 

Dopamine

Norepinephrine

Glutamate

Opioid

 

It alters the activity between the glutamatergic NMDA and AMPA -receptors - somewhat similar to Lamotrigine (lamictal), which you may have heard of. It also weakly agonises, increases the activity, of the Mu and Delta opioid -receptors, this is most likely the source of the addictive properties of Tianeptine, when taken at very high doses. (therapeutic doses are however far below those, even DOUBLE the therapeutic dose should be ok, actually)

Finally, it also lowers plasma-levels of Serotonin, possibly working as a SRE - Serotonin Reuptake Enhancer - however, even though this effect was believed in the past to be the main mechanism of action of Tianeptine, more recent data has shown that this effect is almost entirely occuring in the PERIPHERAL nervous system - outside of the brain, and not inside of it. As such, it affects things which serotonin controls OUTSIDE of the brain, but not inside it. (this is why tianeptine actually affects some forms of Asthma, improving symptoms)

 

Some times, combination-therapy of substances which individually affect these multiple networks in the brain, which Tianeptine affects all on its own, can lead to relief from anhedonia.

 

Please also note that I'm not entirely certain how or where Tianeptine increases dopaminergic and norepinephrinergic activity, so look closer into the mechanisms on your own, and make your own conclusions.

 

For what it's worth, I have also experienced the feelings you experienced, while suffering from Occupational Burnout (which causes something similar to chronic fatigue, just not as chronic) taking Tianeptine Sodium - this may however not be a TRUE feeling of relief, since Tianeptine Sulphate did not cause these euphoric sensations, but did have some antidepressant effects still.

 

You may instead have been somewhat high, really...

 

But, I digress, look closer into Tianeptine and have a look at how it works, and figure out if this has anything to do with your diagnosis and perticular brain-alterations. It should be noted that it's generally considered that the actions on GLUTAMATE is the primary action of Tianeptine, and the network it alters the most, even though it does alter several other networks, to some degree.

 

References:
------------------

 

Tianeptine: a review of its use in depressive disorders.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/11463130

 

Tianeptine: An Antidepressant with Memory-Protective Properties
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2701287/

 

Neurobiological and clinical effects of the antidepressant tianeptine.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18072812

[rhearon]

I've long been curious about tianeptine myself. I too suffer from chronic fatigue. It seems to have some issues around potential for abuse and hence it's lack of regulatory approval and/or controls on buying worldwide. Anyone else have any experience?

[Mind_Paralysis]

I've long been curious about tianeptine myself. I too suffer from chronic fatigue. It seems to have some issues around potential for abuse and hence it's lack of regulatory approval and/or controls on buying worldwide. Anyone else have any experience?

 

Well, you can read a review and some discussion here:

 

http://www.longecity...ere-depression/

 

 

For what it's worth, I've used it myself, and I find it to be effective, as previously stated. It is not, however, IMHO, more effective than SSRI's, but it does start working much faster. Took only a few days before I noticed a difference with Tianeptine, usually takes at least 14 days with SSRI's or SNRI's, for me.

[stan08]

 

I've long been curious about tianeptine myself. I too suffer from chronic fatigue. It seems to have some issues around potential for abuse and hence it's lack of regulatory approval and/or controls on buying worldwide. Anyone else have any experience?

 

Well, you can read a review and some discussion here:

 

http://www.longecity...ere-depression/

 

 

For what it's worth, I've used it myself, and I find it to be effective, as previously stated. It is not, however, IMHO, more effective than SSRI's, but it does start working much faster. Took only a few days before I noticed a difference with Tianeptine, usually takes at least 14 days with SSRI's or SNRI's, for me.

 

 

This study would seem to back your thoughts on tianeptine not being more effective than SSRI's (assuming I'm understanding it correctly) - https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/12232543

 

Personally, I've noticed that tianeptine sulfate is pretty stimulating at 25 mg but very sedating at 50 mg.  However, tianeptine sodium seems to be sedating for me at doses between 12.5 mg and 50 mg (highest I tried).  Not sure why there'd be a difference in effects between sulfate and sodium for me.

Edited by stan08, 30 August 2017 - 07:16 PM.

[Deaden]

Tianeptine works through several mechanisms, you have to look at the mechanisms and then at what your symptoms are, and how they might relate.

 

Right, so you have chronic fatigue and SCHIZOPHRENIA (auditory hallucinations are a sure sign of this) ... are you SURE it's fatigue, and not something called Anhedonia? Anhedonic depression is often a state induced either by negative symptoms, or from malicious auditory hallucinations, in people with Schizophrenia. It's a feeling of there not being any point to anything, and nothing can entice you to do stuff, since it doesn't mean anything.

 

Well, if it IS Anhedonia, then Tianeptine does indeed treat it! Tianeptine is a stimulating antidepressant, which works by the following mechanisms:

 

Dopamine

Norepinephrine

Glutamate

Opioid

 

It alters the activity between the glutamatergic NMDA and AMPA -receptors - somewhat similar to Lamotrigine (lamictal), which you may have heard of. It also weakly agonises, increases the activity, of the Mu and Delta opioid -receptors, this is most likely the source of the addictive properties of Tianeptine, when taken at very high doses. (therapeutic doses are however far below those, even DOUBLE the therapeutic dose should be ok, actually)

Finally, it also lowers plasma-levels of Serotonin, possibly working as a SRE - Serotonin Reuptake Enhancer - however, even though this effect was believed in the past to be the main mechanism of action of Tianeptine, more recent data has shown that this effect is almost entirely occuring in the PERIPHERAL nervous system - outside of the brain, and not inside of it. As such, it affects things which serotonin controls OUTSIDE of the brain, but not inside it. (this is why tianeptine actually affects some forms of Asthma, improving symptoms)

 

Some times, combination-therapy of substances which individually affect these multiple networks in the brain, which Tianeptine affects all on its own, can lead to relief from anhedonia.

 

Please also note that I'm not entirely certain how or where Tianeptine increases dopaminergic and norepinephrinergic activity, so look closer into the mechanisms on your own, and make your own conclusions.

 

For what it's worth, I have also experienced the feelings you experienced, while suffering from Occupational Burnout (which causes something similar to chronic fatigue, just not as chronic) taking Tianeptine Sodium - this may however not be a TRUE feeling of relief, since Tianeptine Sulphate did not cause these euphoric sensations, but did have some antidepressant effects still.

 

You may instead have been somewhat high, really...

 

But, I digress, look closer into Tianeptine and have a look at how it works, and figure out if this has anything to do with your diagnosis and perticular brain-alterations. It should be noted that it's generally considered that the actions on GLUTAMATE is the primary action of Tianeptine, and the network it alters the most, even though it does alter several other networks, to some degree.

 

References:
------------------

 

Tianeptine: a review of its use in depressive disorders.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/11463130

 

Tianeptine: An Antidepressant with Memory-Protective Properties
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2701287/

 

Neurobiological and clinical effects of the antidepressant tianeptine.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18072812

Senpai Stinkorninjor:

 

About tianeptine for anhedonia... I noticed very positive results if taking relatively high doses. I know it's an addictive substance, but that's not what worries me. Would you know if in high doses it would act more of a stimulant that makes me crash after and increase emotional numbness for a couple days until recovery or it's not something to worry about? I haven't been able to tell. If getting high on tianeptine is as toxic as getting high on oxycodone no thanks... Or should just take a small dose and wait a month for it to do anything...? I think last time I did that I barely noticed any effects. Might buy some again...currently taking NSI-189, coming off Nardil and planning on trying NAC + Sarcosine. 

[John250]

Tiaeptine sodium is far superior to sulfate correct? Seems like most places only carry the sulfate except here but unfortunately it’s got other items in it as well.

https://www.masupps....icaine-pm-beta/

https://www.masupps....oducts/vicaine/

[Mind_Paralysis]

Tiaeptine sodium is far superior to sulfate correct? Seems like most places only carry the sulfate except here but unfortunately it’s got other items in it as well.

https://www.masupps....icaine-pm-beta/

https://www.masupps....oducts/vicaine/

 

I have been known to claim that Sodium is superior to Sulfate - however, this may not be entirely fair.

 

I have used both forms, and responded the most to Sodium - I'm actually on it now! And I'm once more noticing more of an effect than when I used Sulfate.

 

But, others have reported good effects from the Sulfate as well - there's several both on Reddit and Longecity whom will vouch for that form.

 

The reason most are only carrying the Sulfate form is because the effects come on slower - the lower solubility of Sulfate causes a form of time-delay mechanism, which seems to prevent the euphoric effects to an extent - hence, all those people on Reddit who were taking 400+ mg's of Tianeptine didn't get the euphoric effects from it, hence they are very, very negative towards the Sulfate-form.
 

The truth though, is that we don't actually KNOW how effective Sulfate is, compared to Sodium - it's not as well-studied at all - there's barely any data on it. Sodium is more tried and true, but one should probably not write Sulfate off completely, without at least trying it.

 

Without a real-deal placebo-controlled head-to-head study of Tianeptine Sodium, sugar-pills, and Tianeptine Sulfate, we won't know which one is actually better - everything else, is, sadly, nothing but hear-say.

 

Anyways, I'm not sure I should mention this, but I do see some potential that it might be relevant... Another Glutamate-modulating antidepressant - KETAMINE - is actually only truly effective when it's administered with a VERY fast onset of action... Intravenous administration is considered superior to both oral and even intranasal - that's why IV-drip is the administered form in the U.S, for depression.

And since Tianeptine is also a glutamate-modulator which affects the AMPA-receptors (like ketamine) then perhaps there's really something to the idea of faster onset... Perhaps glutamatergic activity is not altered sufficiently otherwise - we might be looking at some kind of cascade-effect that needs to rustled to life, when it comes to the glutamatergic systems.

 

Of course, this is just me pulling stuff out of my @$$ - we don't know if that is actually the case, so take this musing with a rather large grain of salt.

[John250]

I have been known to claim that Sodium is superior to Sulfate - however, this may not be entirely fair.

I have used both forms, and responded the most to Sodium - I'm actually on it now! And I'm once more noticing more of an effect than when I used Sulfate.

But, others have reported good effects from the Sulfate as well - there's several both on Reddit and Longecity whom will vouch for that form.

The reason most are only carrying the Sulfate form is because the effects come on slower - the lower solubility of Sulfate causes a form of time-delay mechanism, which seems to prevent the euphoric effects to an extent - hence, all those people on Reddit who were taking 400+ mg's of Tianeptine didn't get the euphoric effects from it, hence they are very, very negative towards the Sulfate-form.

The truth though, is that we don't actually KNOW how effective Sulfate is, compared to Sodium - it's not as well-studied at all - there's barely any data on it. Sodium is more tried and true, but one should probably not write Sulfate off completely, without at least trying it.

Without a real-deal placebo-controlled head-to-head study of Tianeptine Sodium, sugar-pills, and Tianeptine Sulfate, we won't know which one is actually better - everything else, is, sadly, nothing but hear-say.

Anyways, I'm not sure I should mention this, but I do see some potential that it might be relevant... Another Glutamate-modulating antidepressant - KETAMINE - is actually only truly effective when it's administered with a VERY fast onset of action... Intravenous administration is considered superior to both oral and even intranasal - that's why IV-drip is the administered form in the U.S, for depression.
And since Tianeptine is also a glutamate-modulator which affects the AMPA-receptors (like ketamine) then perhaps there's really something to the idea of faster onset... Perhaps glutamatergic activity is not altered sufficiently otherwise - we might be looking at some kind of cascade-effect that needs to rustled to life, when it comes to the glutamatergic systems.

Of course, this is just me pulling stuff out of my @$$ - we don't know if that is actually the case, so take this musing with a rather large grain of salt.

Would you say there is a percentage difference on sodium versus sulfate or should dosing still be the same?

[Mind_Paralysis]

Would you say there is a percentage difference on sodium versus sulfate or should dosing still be the same?

 

I have no idea what the percentage difference in those whom respond to Sulfate or Sodium would be - not a clue.

 

I do believe the dosing regarding Sulfate is supposed to be somewhat higher though - there's different opinions on it, but roughly twice the dosage of Sodium seems to be common.

 

https://www.reddit.c...ptine_sulfates/

 

That's if you dose TWICE instead of thrice though - so that would be... 46 mg of Sulfate, compared to 37,5 mg of Sodium, in total, per day.
 

[John250]

I have no idea what the percentage difference in those whom respond to Sulfate or Sodium would be - not a clue.

I do believe the dosing regarding Sulfate is supposed to be somewhat higher though - there's different opinions on it, but roughly twice the dosage of Sodium seems to be common.

https://www.reddit.c...ptine_sulfates/

That's if you dose TWICE instead of thrice though - so that would be... 46 mg of Sulfate, compared to 37,5 mg of Sodium, in total, per day.

Great thanks