17 replies to this topic

[ironfistx]

They're both collagen although I'm pondering if there's really a difference.

[aconita]

I suppose gelatin to be hydrolized further than bone broth but likely that isn't going to make any substantial difference, gelatin comes at about 10-12 bucks/kg, bones might be cheaper but you need quite a lot of simmering....it comes down to how expensive energy is where you live, I guess.

 

By the way i suspect bone broth to be a bit more than just collagen.

[ironfistx]

I have prepared bone broth before, I mean broth supplements.

 

 

[aconita]

Well....at about 100 bucks for a kg I'll rather simmer bones, no doubts.

 

 

[Heisok]

Hi ironfistx,

 

the Ancient Nutrition bone broth is made with Chicken. I think it is a different type of Collagen than Beef based. Maybe type 2, not type 1 and 3? It can be bought for around $40 per pound. As an aside, Chicken bone broth takes far less time than Beef. The bones disintegrate far faster. I use a pressure cooker.

 

A comparison to the Collagen you indicated, would be Bonfire BioBones bone broth which is made with Organic grass fed beef bones. It can be bought for around $40. After going to the bonfirebroth com website, If it were me, I would try it. They give a lot of information about their product, which is worth your time to read.

 

I use a Collagen Peptides product which is similar to the one you posted. It is turns out less viscous than regular gelatin, and can be mixed far easier.

Edited by Heisok, 04 September 2017 - 06:34 PM.

[Heisok]

Sorry.

 

My apologies. I misread. Both of the bone broths are made with Chicken. I had to get a couple more pages into their sales information to get that definitively.

Edited by Heisok, 04 September 2017 - 10:54 PM.

[Heisok]

Ancient Nutrition also sells a "Bone Broth Collagen " which is made with Beef, Chicken and Turkey which gives Type 1, 2 and 3. Under a new product name Dr. Collagen, they sell a product called "Multi-Collagen Protein" made with Beef, Chicken, Fish and Eggshell membrane. This provides type 1, 2 and 3 Collagen, and something listed as types V and X.

 

This is how they explain it on a nutraceutical company's site:

 

"Scientific research and studies indicates that more than 90% of the collagen found in our body is Collagen Type I & Type III. These two types are found in all connective tissue, eyes, skin, nails, hair and bone. Type II collagen is the major component of hyaline cartilage. Collagen Type II is rich in hyaluronic acid and mucopolysaccarides. Type V collagen is non-cartilaginous tissue. Type I collagen accounts for the majority of the collagen mass and collagen Type V is a minor component. Type V collagen has been implicated in the regulation of fibril diameter, and recently reported preliminary evidence shows that type V collagen is required for collagen fibril nucleation. Type X collagen may have a role in providing mineralization and structural support for articular cartilage."

 

http://certifiednutra.com/collagen.php

 

 

The marketing is interesting,but very expensive as aconita pointed out.

 

Edited by Heisok, 04 September 2017 - 11:43 PM.

[ironfistx]

The Bonfire website says it's used to build muscle.  I'm told that collagen is not used by the muscles at all.  Perhaps I should say I'm needing something for joints/skin.

[aconita]

They promote it as an alternative protein powder to whey in the attempt to grab on the paleo bandwagon...at ten times the price!

 

By the way, broth isn't just from the bones but from every part of the animal or fish, internal organs, cartilages, chickens feet, even skin, eyes and roosters' combs are extremely rich in hyaluronic acid, etc...

 

It might be possible to get those at a good price from butchers or at slaughterhouses.

 

For skin and joints research seems to support with convincing evidence BioCell, which is relatively affordable especially in the US.

[Nate-2004]

They promote it as an alternative protein powder to whey in the attempt to grab on the paleo bandwagon...at ten times the price!

 

By the way, broth isn't just from the bones but from every part of the animal or fish, internal organs, cartilages, chickens feet, even skin, eyes and roosters' combs are extremely rich in hyaluronic acid, etc...

 

It might be possible to get those at a good price from butchers or at slaughterhouses.

 

For skin and joints research seems to support with convincing evidence BioCell, which is relatively affordable especially in the US.

 

How are all these things (every part of fish/chicken/cow) hydrolyzed? Do they all contain hydroxyproline and glycine and etc? Is this something one can do at home?

 

BioCell is available in various Brands like Jarrow which are available in the U.S. but what makes them better than say, Great Lakes hydrolyzed collagen powder?

[aconita]

Broth isn't just collagen, it is far more interesting than that and has been used for centuries as a folk medicine by many cultures around the world, research confirms unsuspected health promoting proprieties.

 

Anyway hydrolization takes place because of heat, hydrolization is kind of a broad term, a broth is unlikely to get a degree of hydrolization of collagen to enable intact absorption of bits of aminoacids chains (like will occur at about 2000Da) but as I wrote broth isn't just collagen and if I have to chose between broth and hydrolized collagen I will go for the former because of its much wider spectrum of beneficial effects, collagen would likely be the last of my concerns.

 

In other words I wouldn't consider broth as a collagen alternative but as whole different thing. 

 

BioCell IS a collagen alternative in its own right.

 

BioCell site explains why and how it is different fro simple hydrolized collagen...which means little when said by the producer, one might argue...but the research backing the claim with clinical results seems convincing.

 

Given the HUGE difference in dosage between BioCell and hydrolized collagen  (1-2g against 10g) there must be something different going on.

 

http://biocellcollagen.com/

 

...and the price is competitive with hydrolized collagen too.

[Nate-2004]

I noticed that hydrolyzed collagen powder contains the same amino acid profile that whey protein has, with the only exception being the addition of hydroxyproline and hydroxylysine to the mix. Everything else is literally the same ingredients. So why not just take hydroxyproline and hydroxylysine instead of adding all the other ingredients? I also noticed that it contains glutamic acid and regular lysine, which can unfortunately increase the levels of glutamate in the brain, not a good thing for me. Glutamate toxicity is a potential cause and exacerbator of Essential Tremor.

 

What does the BioCell collagen contain in terms of amino acids? It only mentions collagen type II as the ingredient, nothing about what that is specifically.

 

 

Edited by Nate-2004, 06 September 2017 - 03:56 PM.

[ironfistx]

I was informed that every type of collagen becomes amino acids after you eat it, so it doesn't matter if it's I or III or whatever.  I've never seen bulk type 2, by the way, but I've seen it in pills.  Then I've seen two types of type 2, there is the sort that is like 500mg per pill, and then there is UC-II that is like 10mg per pill.  All of the other types are available in powder, like Great Lakes, Neocell, etc.

 

Some places say that certain varieties are better for particular situations, though.  I was of the thought that the reason bone broth was good for you was because it had collagen in it which means I thought bone broth powder might have all that stuff in it plus other stuff.  I've made bone broth before with marrow which was a lot of effort compared to buying the mix.

 

That bonfire page was very salesy and turned me off.

[Nate-2004]

I was informed that every type of collagen becomes amino acids after you eat it, so it doesn't matter if it's I or III or whatever.  I've never seen bulk type 2, by the way, but I've seen it in pills.  Then I've seen two types of type 2, there is the sort that is like 500mg per pill, and then there is UC-II that is like 10mg per pill.  All of the other types are available in powder, like Great Lakes, Neocell, etc.

 

Some places say that certain varieties are better for particular situations, though.  I was of the thought that the reason bone broth was good for you was because it had collagen in it which means I thought bone broth powder might have all that stuff in it plus other stuff.  I've made bone broth before with marrow which was a lot of effort compared to buying the mix.

 

That bonfire page was very salesy and turned me off.

 

Biocell claims their collagen II is bioavailable and makes it to the intended target. I just don't know what collagen II is really or what it's made up of in particular.  I'm trying to find a new way of getting collagen without involving glutamate precursors.

Edited by Nate-2004, 06 September 2017 - 09:22 PM.

[ironfistx]

Type II collagen from Biocell:

 

 

Then Neocell

 

[Heisok]

Biocell indicates 4 capsules per day for 2 grams of Biocell. . On Amazon, about $26 per month if one buys a 120 capsule size.

 

The study linked to below used 3 grams which would raise the cost even more.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26770145

 

Evaluation of the Effects of BioCell Collagen, a Novel Cartilage Extract, on Connective Tissue Support and Functional Recovery From Exercise.

Abstract

CONTEXT:

Little is known about the effect of nutritional supplementation on metabolic optimization for enhancing adaptation and recovery of the connective tissue elements that support musculoskeletal function.

OBJECTIVE:

The study aimed to determine the potential effect of supplementation with a novel, hydrolyzed chicken sternal cartilage extract-called BioCell Collagen-on biomarkers and functional indices of recovery from intense exercise.

DESIGN:

The research team designed a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled pilot study.

SETTING:

The study was conducted at the Center for Applied Health Sciences in Stow, OH, USA.

PARTICIPANTS:

Participants were 8 healthy, recreationally active individuals, with a mean age of 29.3 y.

INTERVENTION:

Participants ingested either 3 g of a novel, hydrolyzed chicken sternal cartilage extract called BioCell Collagen ("supplement") or 3 g of a placebo daily for 6 wk prior to challenge with an upper-body, muscle-damaging resistance exercise (UBC) on day 43 and a rechallenge on day 46 to assess functional recovery.

OUTCOME MEASURES:

Primary endpoints were levels of 3 blood biomarkers-creatine kinase (CK), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), and C-reactive protein (CRP)- and scores on a clinical pain scale and a perceived recovery scale (PRS).

RESULTS:

The extract attenuated the post-UBC increase in serum markers for muscle tissue damage: CK, LDH, and CRP. For the intervention group vs the placebo group, the mean changes were as follows: (1) an increase in CK of 20 U/L vs 4726 U/L, respectively; (2) a decrease in LDH of 3.5 U/L vs an increase of 82.9 U/L, respectively; and (3) an increase in CRP of 0.07 mg/L vs an increase of 0.7 mg/L, respectively. The performance decrement in bench press repetitions to failure was 57.9% on day 43 and 57.8% on day 46 for the intervention group vs 72.2% on day 43 and 65% on day 46 for the placebo group. The overall trend for the performance decrement, together with the results for the PRS, suggested that a more robust muscular recovery and adaptive response occurred with use of the extract. The supplement was well tolerated.

CONCLUSIONS:

The study's preliminary data are promising with regard to the beneficial effects of the extract on connective tissue protection and recovery in those engaged in routine resistance training and cardiovascular exercise. A larger study is warranted to confirm and refine these findings.

 

Edited by Heisok, 07 September 2017 - 08:48 PM.

[Heisok]

Another study used 2 grams of Biocell daily.

 

Dosage:

2 grams/day for 8 weeks

Results:

The BioCell Collagen II group showed a significant improvement over time in all WOMAC (pain, stiffness, activities of daily life) and quality-of life scores, whereas no significant changes in efficacy outcome were seen in the placebo group.

Conclusion:

According to the lead researcher, daily intake of BioCell Collagen II led to “meaningful improvements that were significantly superior to the group receiving placebo supplements.” He added: “This preliminary study suggests that BioCell Collagen II has a promise in the management of chronic joint symptoms.”

 

Complete text on academia edu:

 

http://www.academia....ontrolled_Trial

 

 

Edited by Heisok, 07 September 2017 - 09:07 PM.

[ironfistx]

The Health Logic (posted at the beginning of my other post) is $26 for 60 1,000mg servings.

 

Neocell is $18 for 30 2,400mg servings but not Biocell.

 

There is new:

 

 

$16 for 30 1,000mg servings.

 

They also make one with 500mg MSM $15 for 30 1,000mg servings.

 

Jarrow brand

 

 

$11 for 30 1,000mg servings

 

Ongoing this one with other stuff in it, $22 for 30 servings:

 

 

Although there's the issue of hyaluronic acid speeding cancer growth.

Edited by ironfistx, 08 September 2017 - 09:53 PM.