18 replies to this topic

[fugazi]

Hey all,

 

I'm fighting with stubborn acne case, excessive face sebum and seborrheic dermatitis - on going for 10 years already and I'm long after my puberty period (male 35 here).

 

All hormone tests are normal, except one: IGF-1 is elevated 40% (that was 4 months ago), now the elevation increased to 50% (tested 3 times). Typically that would mean I have acromegaly however GH suppression test was ok (everything suppressed) and head MRI  revealed no tumor. 

 

So the question is should I just forget about it and try to find another cause? Or perhaps just bomb myself with accutane at this point?

 

In medical literature there are cases where the tumor is in lungs / abdomen but if I had a tumor I wouldn't pass the GH suppression test right? So what to do next?

 

[Elkaer]

I am not sure what you can do to supress IGF-1 levels if thats your concern, but i know there excists plenty of options.

 

In regard to your acne, i know that a low dose accutane is just as effective in treating acne as a large dose, so that is for sure preferable.

Microneedling is also  option that you should look into. Just out of curiosity i can see you are located in denmark, where did you get your igf-1

levels tested?

 

And i just started my trail on Mk-677 which raises hGH levels and in return raises IGF-1 levels and i noticed my skin breaking out, this

could mean that your raised IGF-1 levels proberly is the culpit.

 

 

[fugazi]

First of all thanks for your reply.

 

The "Denmark" location was put by mistake but one way or another I made my IGF-1 tests in a lab that has all the necessary certificates. I'm planning to redo it in one more lab.

 

As for the reduction of IGF-1 there are some diet approaches mostly based on lowering the calorie intake ([1] - dunno if it still holds) or reducing the amount of animal protein that you consume [2]. When I'm on low carb diet/low protein my acne gets better in 2-3 days (so super fast) but this is not a cure but rather a partial suppressing of a problem. Additionally from what I've read estrogen also seems to be decreasing the IGF-1 but I'm a male and this is no go for me.

 

I've read some studies about accutane (isotretinoin) lowering the IGF-1 [3] so maybe I will try it. The problem is each time I start it I am having abdominal pains (feeling like someone glued my gut). I agree that IGF-1 maybe the culprit here. 

 

[1] - https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4717266/

[2] - https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3988204/

[3] - https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20128787

[Matt]

I had very bad acne as a teen and it went away after I ate a healthy diet.

 

However, late last year, and earlier this year I had non stop acne. I felt and looked like a teenager again. Nothing worked except Zinc. 

I started Zinc Picolinate at 100 mg / day. After a few weeks I lowered it to 50 mg / day.  Within days my acne started to heal, and now I have zero spots. My skin is the best it's been in years, in fact. I take Now Foods Zinc Picolinate. 

Google "zinc picolinate acne reviews" 

 

" stubborn acne case, excessive face sebum and seborrheic dermatitis"

 

 

These are common in zinc deficiency. There's quite a few studies (haven't got time to find them right now but will dig them out if you want them) which shows Zinc supplementation helps with those problems.

 

For high IGF-1, try lowering calories and reducing protein to RDA levels.

 

Give it a try and report back.

Edited by Matt, 13 September 2017 - 04:22 PM.

[fugazi]

I've tried zinc, b2, biotin, vitamin d, d3, and pretty much all over the counter stuff. Doesn't work at all. 

 

As for the diet as mentioned in my previous message it only work to some point but far from being acne free. 

Edited by fugazi, 13 September 2017 - 04:27 PM.

[Matt]

It may or may not help, but worth a try. It was the only thing that cured my (recent) stubborn acne.

 

Study 1: Zinc salts in Dermatology Ann Dermatol Venereol. 2004; 131(5):455-60 (ISSN: 0151-9638) 

 

Zinc is an essential trace element for the human organism. It acts like cofactor for the metalloenzymes involved in many cellular processes. Its anti-inflammatory activity, which is the basis of therapeutic use, other than acrodermatitis enteropathica, is not well known: production of cytokines, antioxidant activity. Its toxicity is very low, but marked at high doses during chronic administration by the risk of hypocupremia. It is not teratogenic and can be given during pregnancy. Its absorption, through the duodenum, is inhibited by excessive phytate intake. Maximum concentration is reached after 2 to 3 hours. It is widely distributed in the organism, mainly in muscles and bone. Excretion is predominantly digestive. Its spectacular effect in acrodermatitis enteropathica, through compensation of genetically determined malabsorption was discovered in 1973. Its usefulness in acne is based on the anti-inflammatory action and was first described with zinc sulfate, then with better tolerated gluconate. Many controlled studies have shown an efficacy on inflammatory lesions. Doses varied from 30 to 150 mg of elemental zinc and studies against cyclines have shown that minocycline has a superior effect; but zinc might be an alternative treatment when cyclines are contraindicated. To date we don't have convincing data for its use in other indications (leishmaniosis, warts, cutaneous ulcers). Tolerance at usual doses (200 mg of zinc gluconate or 30 mg of elemental zinc) is good. Major side effects are abdominal with nausea, vomiting, but are fleeting and dose dependent.

 

Study 2: Effects of oral zinc and vitamin A in acne.

 

The effects of oral zinc sulfate (corresponding to 135 mg of zinc daily) alone and in combination with vitamin A (300,000 international units) daily on acne lesions have been compared with those of vitamin A alone and of a placebo.

 

The number of comedones, papules, pustules, and infiltrates were counted at each visit. After four weeks, there was a significant decrease in the number of papules, pustules, and infiltrates in the zinc-treated groups. The effect of zinc plus vitamin A was not better than zinc alone. After 12 weeks of treatment, the mean acne score had decreased from 100% to 15%. The mechanism for the effect of zinc therapy in acne, to our knowledge, is not presently known.

 

Study 3: A double-blind study of the effect of zinc and oxytetracycline in acne vulgaris.

With a double-blind technique, the effects of oral zinc and tetracyclines were compared in 37 patients with moderate and severe acne. No difference in effect between the treatments was seen and no side-effects were noted in any group. After 12 weeks of treatment, the average decrease in the acne score was about 70% in both groups.

 

Study 4: Zinc sulfate in acne vulgaris. Weimar VM, Puhl SC, Smith WH, tenBroeke JE Arch Dermatol 1978 Dec;114(12):1776-8

The effects of orally administered zinc sulfate in 52 patients with mild to moderate acne vulgaris were compared to those of a placebo capsule.

 

The numbers of comedones, papules, pustules, infiltrates, and cysts were counted at each visit over a 12-week period. Forty patients completed the study. Zinc appeared to have a somewhat beneficial effect on pustules but not on comedones, papules, infiltrates, or cysts. Fourteen patients (50%) in the zinc group had side effects of nausea, vomiting, or diarrhea. Six patients (21%) in the zinc group could not tolerate the nausea and withdrew from the study

 

Study 5: Multicenter randomized comparative double-blind controlled clinical trial of the safety and efficacy of zinc gluconate versus minocycline hydrochloride in the treatment of inflammatory acne vulgaris. Dermatology. 2001; 203(2):135-40 (ISSN: 1018-8665)

 

BACKGROUND: In addition to tetracyclines, zinc may constitute an alternative treatment in inflammatory lesions of acne. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the place of zinc gluconate in relation to antibiotics in the treatment of acne vulgaris. METHODS: Zinc was compared to minocycline in a multicenter randomized double-blind trial. 332 patients received either 30 mg elemental zinc or 100 mg minocycline over 3 months. The primary endpoint was defined as the percentage of the clinical success rate on day 90 (i.e. more than 2/3 decrease in inflammatory lesions, i.e. papules and pustules). RESULTS: This clinical success rate was 31.2% for zinc and 63.4% for minocycline. Minocycline nevertheless showed a 9% superiority in action at 1 month and one of 17% at 3 months, with respect to the mean change in lesion count. Regarding safety, the majority of the adverse effects of zinc gluconate and of minocycline concerned the gastrointestinal system and were moderate (5 dropouts with zinc gluconate and 4 with minocycline). CONCLUSION: Minocycline and zinc gluconate are both effective in the treatment of inflammatory acne, but minocycline has a superior effect evaluated to be 17% in our study.
 

Edited by Matt, 13 September 2017 - 04:33 PM.

[Matt]

I've tried zinc, b2, biotin, vitamin d, d3, and pretty much all over the counter stuff. Doesn't work at all. 

 

As for the diet as mentioned in my previous message it only work to some point but far from being acne free. 

 

Biotin makes it worse, so I wouldn't include that.

 

Which form of Zinc did you try and how long for? It can even take weeks or months to see a clinical benefit. Acne starts up to 12 weeks before you see the spot.

 

What I'm doing right now is

- Zinc picolinate

- Beta Glucan

- Clearasil 5 in 1 face wash  (didn't work by itself)

- skinceuticals CF+phloretin

 

Have you had any dental checkups? Hidden infections can sometimes cause the immune system to overreact to bacteria and cause spots. Get some x rays if you haven't had them done recently. Acne and dental connection can be found on pubmed.

Edited by Matt, 13 September 2017 - 04:38 PM.

[fugazi]

I usually give a supplement 4-5 weeks to work. Had a dental checkup week ago everything is fine here. I believe IGF-1 is the culprit and I need to find a reason why it is elevated and how to bring it down. 

[Matt]

I usually give a supplement 4-5 weeks to work. Had a dental checkup week ago everything is fine here. I believe IGF-1 is the culprit and I need to find a reason why it is elevated and how to bring it down. 

 

Okay, but what zinc supplement was it? It's important. And 4-5 weeks isn't enough time.. It can take months. You took zinc picolinate specifically?

I'm not doubting IGF-1 connection, because it can and does make the problem worse. But I think the trigger or underlying cause is not that. 

 

Vegan + Calorie restriction + no more than RDA of protein will lower your IGF-1 levels. I've been doing all of these for years, yet I broke out like crazy. IGF-1 by itself isn't likely the answer imo.

Edited by Matt, 13 September 2017 - 04:56 PM.

[fugazi]

 zinc gluconate / zinc picolinate too. Once again it did nothing for me over those 4 weeks and I will not try it again. 

 

 

Well the first question should be whether you have elevated IGF-1 levels? Have you done IGF-1 testing in a reputable lab? 

Edited by fugazi, 14 September 2017 - 07:17 AM.

[HaplogroupW]

I would suggest adding something to the list of things to try. I'm don't know this is a better idea than any of the others above. Just that if you are willing to self-experiment, I think this is worth trying.

 

So my suggestion is a ketogenic (carbohydrate-restricted) diet. Anecdotes regarding acne:

https://www.reddit.c...sted_to_xxketo/

 

There are also anecdotes of the opposite effect (acne flairing up during keto).

 

keto reduces IGF-1: http://onlinelibrary...08.01769.x/full

 

And just to anticipate one objection: ketogenic diet is not necessarily a meat-eater diet. I am vegetarian. There is also such a thing as vegan keto.

 

If you want to do it, I'd read here, and don't skip the bit about electrolyte supplementation: https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq

 

Keto has been shown to lower C-reactive protein, a marker for chronic inflammation. I think it helps people with all manner of chronic inflammatory diseases (too lazy to search for references at the moment). In my case, the chronic inflammatory problem was GERD, or maybe more accurately esophagitis. It took several months before it resolved. Prior to that nexium helped, but only somewhat.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by HaplogroupW, 24 September 2017 - 07:23 AM.

[Matt]

 zinc gluconate / zinc picolinate too. Once again it did nothing for me over those 4 weeks and I will not try it again. 

 

 

Well the first question should be whether you have elevated IGF-1 levels? Have you done IGF-1 testing in a reputable lab? 

 

No, but as I said, I've done calorie restriction for 14 years, and limit my protein intake. My IGF-1 is very likely to be low and my testosterone is also at the lower end of normal (412 ng/dl). Even during times when I had high protein intake (30% of calories), from whey protein every day, egg whites and beans, I never had any acne.  

4 weeks is not enough time. Acne / spots can take up to  8-12 weeks to form.

 

Try what I am doing:

 

Clearasil ultra 5 in 1 (don't use too much or it can dry out and irritate skin)

Vitamin D3 - 2000 IU 

Zinc Picolinate - 50 mg/day

I'm also using Skinceuticals CF+Phloretin. (Just thought i'd add it in there as I've been using SkinC CE+F and this since 2009, not that it's necessarily preventing spots)

It completely resolved my recent acne. I don't really see what you have to lose by trying for a longer period of time.

Edited by Matt, 07 October 2017 - 05:09 PM.

[Believer]

Food restriction, contratry to stupid Internet myths (that it increases growth hormone or igf1), reduces igf1.

Also, low body fat lowers igf1 whereas high body fat does the opposite.

[RedStaR]

Food restriction, contratry to stupid Internet myths (that it increases growth hormone or igf1), reduces igf1.

Also, low body fat lowers igf1 whereas high body fat does the opposite.

 

Well, protein in specific raises IGF-1, so does dairy and inflammation.

[RWhigham]

I'm fighting with stubborn acne case, excessive face sebum and seborrheic dermatitis - on going for 10 years already and I'm long after my puberty period (male 35 here).

 

Try taking caprylic acid (C8 sat fat) .  Google Caprylic acid acne.

 

I use "Mickey T Eight" 100% pure caprylic acid from coconut oil. I took 2 tbsp the first day and had a herxheimer reaction - it cleaned me out.  Tried it again and no problem. Now I swish a tablespoon of it around in my mouth before swallowing once a day.   I don't know how long I'll continue, at least until my next lipids test.

 

I have a "keto rash" on one leg and it quit itching after I put caprylic acid on it. It's too soon to see if it clears up.

 

IGF-1 increases telomerase which is good, but its the "grim reaper" gene, so we don't want it too high. I don't know how to lower it.

Edited by RWhigham, 20 October 2017 - 09:31 PM.

[misterE]

Milk and dairy-products are notorious for their IGF-1 raising abilities. Of course milk is for growth and the way milk promotes growth is by raising IGF-1. The protein in milk stimulates IGF-1 because milk-protein (casein, whey) have high levels of essential-amino-acids. Restricting animal-protein or replacing animal-protein for plant-protein will quickly lower IGF-1 and increase their binding proteins. Vegas have about 15% lower IGF-1 than omnivores.

[sthira]

Milk and dairy-products are notorious for their IGF-1 raising abilities. Of course milk is for growth and the way milk promotes growth is by raising IGF-1. The protein in milk stimulates IGF-1 because milk-protein (casein, whey) have high levels of essential-amino-acids. Restricting animal-protein or replacing animal-protein for plant-protein will quickly lower IGF-1 and increase their binding proteins. Vegas have about 15% lower IGF-1 than omnivores.

I avoid milk and dairy because I consider it cruel to the animals milked in industry. Drinking commodity milk, eating cheese disgusts me. I don't know how people can consume it.

Have you had your IGF-1 tested? You're still vegetarian (or vegan)? I'm a longterm vegan and haven't tested for IGF-1 . I'm not convinced having low IGF-1 is necessarily healthy. But I'm not convinced it's unhealthy, either. It's probably in constant flux, growth factors go up and down all day and every moment, varying from organ to organ, body system to system...depending on so many aspects of life. I think biologists are at just the very tip of understanding much at all about these key metabolic factors. To attempt to trick or manipulate them -- outsmart evolution -- is understandable (no one wants to decay into uselessness). I just don't think we know how to trick nature very well yet. We'll learn, but so far, eh... Repair and replace the parts that wear out seems like a much more elegant and realistic strategy.

[RWhigham]

Josh Mitteldorf 's 2015 article  HGH and IGF–Promise and Danger  has lots of references to IGF-1 studies, and a nice plot of IGF-1 vs age. Unfortunately, not mulch about raising or lowering it.

Edited by RWhigham, 15 May 2018 - 02:24 PM.

[misterE]

You lower IGF-1 by reducing energy and protein intake.