167 replies to this topic

[Ovidus]

Earlier today, I made a lengthy post at the Nicotinamide Riboside Personal Experiences Thread. Link to post: 
http://www.longecity...-45#entry827234

 

As you can see there, I have detailed my extremely impressive results, using both Nicotinamide Riboside, as well as Nicotinamide + Ribose mixed together. While both have given me very significant results, I am unable to tell which one would be better, hence this thread. 

First, a little background: 
I am outside of the United States and began with one bottle of Niagen's NR, which gave me excellent results. The initial impression was so positive that I had to share the bottle with an elderly relative. Since importing this product into my country is quite the ordeal -yes, I am not joking.... importation of all supplements by individuals prohibited- my supply began to dwindle and I began looking for alternatives. Now, our very valued member Turnbuckle had previously commented that Nicotinamide + Ribose would be more effective than NR, so that is what I tried (Turnbucke, hopefully I got your attention; please comment Sir). I was able to get my hands on pharmaceutical grade Nicotinamide and mixed it with D-Ribose. I was not intending this to be a long-term experiment, so I did not mind the procedure being very crude and rough (you will cringe at how crude).

I simply eyeballed a 50 gram sachet of Nicotinamide and used an amount that would be very tiny, hopefully in the vicinity of 250 mg. This, I mixed with a few grams of D-Ribose (bought as a supplement from a local seller, who brings them in from Europe) and dissolved the mix in water. My simple thinking was that both Nicotinamide and Ribose alone at high doses (as in a gram of Nicotinamide, for example and 2.5 grams of Ribose) would be totally fine and I was staying below those levels. I thought that mixed together they'd do nothing far more harmful than they would alone. Fast forward to 2 months or so of sometimes Niagen's NR and some other times Nicotinamide and Ribose mixed manually like this, and I can say that both give extremely strong and almost entirely positive results (please see linked thread for details). I am not able to absolutely tell which one produces stronger outcomes, but I am leaning slightly towards NR. 
The mixture of Nicotinamide + Ribose also appears to give me -as I detailed- androgenic / potentially DHT related sides, which the NR did not give. 
However, I was taking far higher doses of the homemade mix than of the NR. 

Questions:

 

1- Do we have definitive proof whether NR or Nicotinamide + Ribose mixed together is more effective? What are the differences exactly? Can those who have tried both and stuck with Nicotinamide + Ribose please chime in, because other than Turnbuckle I see nobody in that boat.

2- How much Nicotinamide and Ribose are there -roughly- in one 125 mg pill of Niagen's NR? If mixing Nicotinamide + Ribose by hand, should we replicate these figures or will there be inefficiencies in the assimilation of the two together meaning that we need to increase the quantities found in one pill of 125 mg NR?

 

3- Would the homemade mix potentially give sides that the NR would not lead to? Below, I am copy-pasting a small portion of the other thread where I explained the only issue I had with the homemade mix, though as I mention, this may simply be a result of the excess dosage. When I reduced the dosage of my homemade mix (yes, again by eyeballing -sorry, in the process of getting an accurate scale, but not there yet) the below mentioned sides disappeared.

"DHT Conversion

This one is very strange and nothing I have come across, as mentioned by anyone else. I was essentially feeling some prostate enlargement and nipple sensitivity, much like you'd feel if you were taking highly androgenic anabolic steroids. This has happened only on high doses of my home-made nicotinamide + ribose mix and subsided -well almost entirely disappeared- when I reduced the dose of nicotinamide + ribose (please see other thread linked). Can someone opine what may be causing this? One idea is simply greater conversion of endogenous testosterone to DHT. Whether plain old nicotinamide can cause this if dosing is sufficiently high, I do not know. Also, if NR would have caused this, had the dose been high enough, or if this can only be caused by my home-made mix of nicotinamide + ribose, I am also unsure of. A slightly more far-fetched possibility is increase in androgen receptor number or sensitivity, while yet another idea is less sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) which may result in more freely circulating androgens."
 

 

Thanks to all....

 

Ovidus
 

[MikeDC]

Can we stop the non sense. If you think Nicotinamide + Riboside is just as good. Then just take that and stop using Niagen.

[Harkijn]

It has already been pointed out a number of times in various threads that there is not even one measly mice study indicating that Nicotinamide in the body teams up with Ribose to form NAD+ or one of its precursors. But I suppose you can compare the two approaches regarding other aspects. Ribose for instance is certainly very energizing.

However, a cautionary tale about taking ribose on a regular basis:. In my gym taking ribose was quite the thing to do for a long time. People took what they said was moderate doses. But  at least four men  went through a miserable time before realizing it was the  ribose that pushed their bloodsugar way too low. Also: whoever is on medication, consult your doctor or at least check on webmd.com if there are interactions with ribose.

[MikeDC]

NR supplementation has lasting effects. Alternating NR and N + R doesn't mean N + R works.

[Slobec]

One more +  for niacinamide   https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5408298/

[MikeDC]

Nobody is denying regular B3 works as NAD+ precursor to some degree. But NR is superior.
People who can't afford NR should take Nicotinamide or Niacin. Niagen is a premium products for the upper middle class and rich.

[Turnbuckle]

Posters who work for NR vendors or who have stock should identify themselves. Because some are debating this as if they have financial interest, instead of logically.

[MikeDC]

You are biased so you think other people are biased.

[Turnbuckle]

You are biased so you think other people are biased.

 

 

I think some here have a financial interest. I think you do.

[MikeDC]

People who have taken NR knows it is a real thing and close to a miracle.
Spreading the word is good for people's health. How is your N+R nonsense going to help people?

[Turnbuckle]

People who have taken NR knows it is a real thing and close to a miracle.
Spreading the word is good for people's health. How is your N+R nonsense going to help people?

 

Do you have stock in a seller or producer of NR? Do you work for them. Or do you have relatives involved with them?

[MikeDC]

I am related with ChromaDex. Whether I buy CDXC stock is none of your business.

[Turnbuckle]

I am related with ChromaDex. Whether I buy CDXC stock is none of your business.

 

 

And thus you are hopping from thread to thread making unhelpful comments that aren't based on anything except a desire to improve your own financial position.

[MikeDC]

That was a typo. I am NOT related to ChromaDex.

[Turnbuckle]

That was a typo. I am NOT related to ChromaDex.

 

A typo or Freudian slip? In any case you have not denied being a stock holder. And that amounts to the same thing, that you are partisan. By posting in the partisan fashion you've adopted you are hurting the rep of this supplement and the company selling it. Already their papers look a bit dicey, in particular where the term "oral availability" is concerned. Because if it is orally available, then the researchers can make millions. And if it is not orally available, then they will make nothing. They will make nothing because anyone can buy N & R and take them for a tiny fraction of the cost of NR. And while they claim it is orally available, they have not shown it. In fact, they have not presented the one test that would show it: a direct comparison between NR and N+R, while all their other evidence points to NR being digested before absorption. In other words, it is N+R with a time delay for digestion.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 17 September 2017 - 03:04 PM.

[Harkijn]

MIke ,you seem hypersensitive to any criticism directed at NR. Calling OP's ideas nonsense is unhelpful, as Turnbuckle rightly says. Please moderate your tone and show some real  interest in other people's ideas. I know you can because you have made meaningful contributions to other threads. Look at it this way: people reading some of your posts might conclude that taking NR leads to curtness, irascibility and lack of empathy.   Now that would be bad for NR business, wouldn't it?

Edited by Harkijn, 17 September 2017 - 03:04 PM.

[MikeDC]

If N+R works, why would P&G wants ChromaDex to develop even more stable NR? Why are there so many patent applications for NR. Do you think these big companies have not tested if N+R works? They all want to fool people?

Why did ChromaDex use NRCL? Chloride was added to stabilize NR. Why it is recommended to take NR first thing in the morning? If you take NR with food, it will stay unabsorbed longer and could become N+R.

Edited by MikeDC, 17 September 2017 - 03:29 PM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

@MikeDC, you wrote: "Do you think these big companies have not tested if N+R works?"--Please supply links to any published research by ChromaDex, for example, that you are aware, of which reports on the findings of N+R tests .

[MikeDC]

While at it, file a patent to claim all medical benefits from N+R before a Fortune 500 company realize it.

[Harkijn]

@MikeDC, you wrote: "Do you think these big companies have not tested if N+R works?"--Please supply links to any published research by ChromaDex, for example, that you are aware, of which reports on the findings of N+R tests .

Probably not Chromadex but NAM selling companies must have been quick to check about N+R as soon as dr. Brenner published about NR in food, a long long time ago. However, they did not publish because sadly what does NOT work does not get published.....

[Turnbuckle]

If N+R works, why would P&G wants ChromaDex to develop even more stable NR? Why are there so many patent applications for NR. Do you think these big companies have not tested if N+R works? They all want to fool people?

Why did ChromaDex use NRCL? Chloride was added to stabilize NR. Why it is recommended to take NR first thing in the morning? If you take NR with food, it will stay unabsorbed longer and could become N+R.

 

 

P&G is doing the development work on a more stable NR at their expense, which will presumably be directed to things other than oral ingestion, such as skin products. As for patent applications, two have been published claiming derivatives of NR for skin care formulations. Undoubtedly they could be valuable there, as the problem of oral digestion is bypassed.

 

As for NR chloride, sounds like you are giving up on the oral availability of NR and are now claiming that the chloride can be absorbed without digestion. Can you link to any papers on that? And as for a recommendation to take NR first thing in the morning, are you saying that NR will be digested if taken with food?

 

The bottom line: there is still no convincing evidence that NR is orally available and/or better than N+R.

 

The published skin care applications assigned to ChromaDex--

 

NICOTINIC ACID RIBOSIDE OR NICOTINAMIDE RIBOSIDE COMPOSITIONS, REDUCED DERIVATIVES THEREOF, AND THE USE THEREOF TO ENHANCE SKIN PERMEATION IN TREATING SKIN CONDITIONS 

 

and

 

NICOTINAMIDE RIBOSIDE COMPOSITIONS FOR TOPICAL USE IN TREATING SKIN CONDITIONS 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 17 September 2017 - 04:46 PM.

[MikeDC]

There tons of evidence that Niagen increases NAD+. Show me an evidence that N+R achieve the same results.
Show us evidence that N+R becomes NR in cells. Which enzyme is used?

[Turnbuckle]

There tons of evidence that Niagen increases NAD+. Show me an evidence that N+R achieve the same results.
Show us evidence that N+R becomes NR in cells. Which enzyme is used?

 

 

All the evidence your company's  NR paper presented is consistent with NR being broken down to N+R. At the most a few percent may get through, but even that is unlikely. So NR is N+R. The NR paper further stated that N by itself increases NAD+ by 1/2 as much as NR. (This is likely because ribose is a rare commodity in cells and the body does not keep reserves.) So if N alone does half of what NR does, then why not take twice as much? The cost savings is huge.

 

The cost of 10 grams of N: $0.77 (Amazon, NOW)

The cost of 10 grams of NR: $37 (Amazon, Thorne)

 

A factor of almost 50 to one, and even higher if you add in the R and compare NR to N+R at the same weight.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 17 September 2017 - 06:27 PM.

[MikeDC]

You are just complaining about the price of Niagen. As shown by many research studies, NR uses NRK1 and NRK2 to convert to NAD+ which bypass the regular NAMPT bottle neck. You basically added a wider path in the NAD+ synthesis pathway. The NAMPT limits the amount of Nicotinamide that can be converted. Adding more Nicotinamide doesn't help. Too much Nicotinamide inhibit Sirt1. NR is a premium B3 and demands a higher price. Nobody said all good things should be affordable by everyone. We are not a communist country.

I am pretty sure that I will continue using Niagen at $200 a month. I will have to think a little if they raise it to $2000. This might happen if FDA approves it as a drug in the future.

Edited by MikeDC, 17 September 2017 - 06:34 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

We are not a communist country.

 

 

 

One thing you can say about the NR marketing scheme: it is capitalism on parade.

[stefan_001]

According this study in autistic chlidren ribose consumption leads to increases in:

 

"The Ribose group had significant improvements in ribose-5-phosphate, NADH, ATP, and folic acid"

http://go.galegroup....ymousEntry=true

 

So it confirms more energy but increase in NADH and therefore it alters the NAD+/NADH ratio and as result turns off SIRTs. So good for gym but bad for aging. Turnbuckle you encourage people to consume large amounts of ribose, I think its time you support that with some kind of study results.

Edited by stefan_001, 17 September 2017 - 07:20 PM.

[Hebbeh]

According this study in autistic chlidren ribose consumption leads to increases in:

 

"The Ribose group had significant improvements in ribose-5-phosphate, NADH, ATP, and folic acid"

http://go.galegroup....ymousEntry=true

 

So it confirms more energy but increase in NADH and therefore it alters the NAD+/NADH ratio and as result turns off SIRTs. So good for gym but bad for aging. Turnbuckle you encourage people to consume large amounts of ribose, I think its time you support that with some kind of study results.

 

The study did not specify that the ratio of NAD+/NADH was altered either way.  You made that assumption and if you're going to make definitive statements, the burden of proof is on you.  The study was looking at finite levels of NADH as one of the markers of autism metabolism and as such, that is what the study reported on.  The study did not report on changes of NAD+ or the ratio as that is not what they were looking for.  If assumptions are what we are looking for, it is more likely that NAD+ increased also.  Of course what many are missing is that simple increases in NAD+ are of no consequence if not utilized in beneficial NAD+ metabolism.  Biology is more complex than just simply increasing finite amounts of NAD+.

[MikeDC]

If NAD+ is increased, it will be used for all NAD+ metabolism. Unless there is genetic defects blocking it.

[zorba990]

You are just complaining about the price of Niagen. As shown by many research studies, NR uses NRK1 and NRK2 to convert to NAD+ which bypass the regular NAMPT bottle neck. You basically added a wider path in the NAD+ synthesis pathway. The NAMPT limits the amount of Nicotinamide that can be converted. Adding more Nicotinamide doesn't help. Too much Nicotinamide inhibit Sirt1. NR is a premium B3 and demands a higher price. Nobody said all good things should be affordable by everyone. We are not a communist country.

I am pretty sure that I will continue using Niagen at $200 a month. I will have to think a little if they raise it to $2000. This might happen if FDA approves it as a drug in the future.

If price were the only consideration that would be one thing. However it's quite clear NR is less effective than N + R (as well as being a ripoff). Thankfully we are free to debate it so others can make informed choices. Niacinamide and niacin both have long records of use and safety. NR does not. Your marketing will be unlikely to sway anyone and quite likely to get you banned.....

[MikeDC]

N+R more effective than NR? This is NR thread and you are attacking NR. Who should be banned?

If you can't afford NR. Just take your N+R. I am happy to over pay for NR.