44 replies to this topic

[DareDevil]

I am posting this thread because I have heard positive feedback about the IV drip infusion of NAD+. NAD+ is delivered through intra venous infusions in slow drips into the bloodstream in this process.

 

There are two main uses for this. First to reduce alcohol and drug dependency in addiction rehab clinics, Rehab clinics claim an unmatched success rate of close to 90 percent. However the second use is what interests me today. Luxury clinics in posh cities also offer drip formulations of NAD+ but for Anti Aging purposes. Here the success rate hasn't been formally assessed but there are nonetheless claims of great benefits and testimony to support this.

 

Having taken NR for some time, alone as well as with other supplements, I noted benefits from its oral intake. Also, I am familiar with the scientific reserves regarding the bioavailability of NAD+ directly added into the bloodstream, that pertain to its ability to enter individual cells and bring the expected benefits. However, IV drip administration of NAD+ has been shown to provide a measure of effectiveness under medical supervision, therefore a case can be made for the administration of NAD+ versus taking none, or only taking its precursors such as NR.

 

Given that for the purposes of personal testing of this hypothesis I do not have a budget allowing for a large number of IV drips to be administered, I have instead procured 20mg of 99% pure NAD+ powder from a well known reseller of research chemicals. Unable to personally administer IV infusions safely, I plan to instead test this substance by the closest alternative administration, Intramuscular Injection. Prior to this I need to ascertain the following:

 

- what liquid in which to dilute and suspend the NAD+

- what dosage to administer

- what frequency to inject

- how to conserve the mixture

 

I plan to start the IM injections fairly soon and would appreciate any advice or input regarding any of these questions. In the absence of advice to the contrary, I initially plan to use injectable saline solution, and to inject daily dosages at 20mg week 1, 50mg week 2, 100mg week 3. Increases in dosage will be conditional to the absence of negative side effects from lower dosages.

 

I look forward to your suggestions and advice.

 

DareDevil

[Turnbuckle]

I have instead procured 20mg of 99% pure NAD+ powder from a well known reseller of research chemicals.

 

 

This is a microscopic amount. A patent application for NAD+ treatment claims doses of .5 to 5 grams of precursors, and the body stores of NAD must be several grams.

 

1. A method for preventing, treating or providing increased resistance to neuropathy and/or pain; and associated disorders including cramps, neuromuscular paralysis, loss of sensation / numbness, tingling feeling, loss of motor skills, sexual dysfunction in a subject, comprising administering to the subject an effective amount of an agent that increases the level of NAD+ in the subject.

...

22. The method of any of claims 1-20, wherein the agent that increases the level of NAD⁺ is an NAD⁺ precursor.

 

23. The method of claim 22, wherein the NAD+ precursor is selected from the group consisting of nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN), nicotinic acid, nicotinamide, nicotinamide riboside ( R), nicotinic acid mononucleotide, nicotinic acid riboside, AICAR, adenosine, adenine, adenosine monophosphate, an analog, hetero- or homo-dimers, oligomer or polymer of any of the foregoing, or a salt or prodrug thereof.

...

28. The method of any one of claims 1-27, wherein the agent that increases the level of NAD+ is administered at a dose of between 0.5 - 5 grams per day.

 

https://www.google.c...6176437A1?cl=en

 

 

 

In my opinion, 20mg will do nothing. Better to spend your money on NAD+ precursors you can take orally. Nicotinamide and ribose, for example, which are dirt cheap.

 

BTW, NAD+ seems to be available for oral use, at least in France. 60 grams is being sold for $ 649.95 here. However, I doubt the claims that it is orally available--

 

Intraperitoneal injection of Nam, NAD+ and NADH produced significant increases in urinary excretion of Nam and its metabolites. Similar results were obtained when Nam and NAD+ were given orally. On the other hand, oral administration of NADH did not bring about an increase in urinary excretion of Nam and its metabolites, suggesting that NADH in digestive organs has been decomposed to a compound(s) that cannot yield Nam. In fact, incubation of NADH at acidic pH to mimic the stomach resulted in rapid conversion of NADH to an unknown compound. Better understanding of the fate of oral NADH is needed for its therapeutic and supplemental use....NAD+ is efficiently digested in the small intestinal track, producing NAM...

https://www.jstage.j...2/52_2_142/_pdf

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 19 September 2017 - 09:44 AM.

[Anthony_Loera]

I know of a Dr in Orlando that does this.... and may do NMN as well.

 

IM me if you want his contact info. 

 

I trust him, and no... we have no business arrangement.

He is just a very knowledgeable doc I have spoken to on and off...

 

A

[DareDevil]

Sorry for the typo.

 

I have purchased 20 Grams of NAD+

 

I plan to use injectable saline solution, and to inject dosages at 20mg/daily on week 1, 50mg/daily on week 2 and 100mg/daily on week 3. This would amount to an intake of 140mg during week 1, 350mg during week 2, 700mg during week 3 - making for a total intake of NAD+ during the first 3-week trial of 1.19 grams.

 

Upon neutral or positive results from this testing, I would increase the dosages in a second three week trial run as follows: 150mg/daily on week 1, 200mg/daily on week 2, 250mg/daily on week 3. This would amount to an intake of 1050mg during week 1, 1400mg during week 2 and 1750mg during week 3 - making for a total NAD+ intake during the second trial of 4.2 grams.

 

Again upon neutral or positive results from this second testing, I would again increase the dosages in a third three week trial as follows: 300mg/daily on week 1, 350mg on week 2, 400mg on week 3. This would amount to an intake of 2100mg during week 1, 2450mg during week 2, 2800mg during week 3 - making for a total NAD+ intake during the third trial of 7.35 grams.

 

The total NAD+ scheduled for injection during theses 9 weeks of trials would be 12.74 grams granted that all results are either neutral or positive and that no negative side-effects occur. Thanks for sharing your opinions on this very arbitrary schedule of dosages drafted in the absence of know quantities to use effectively in intravenous infusion or intramuscular injection.

 

Cheers,

 

DareDevil

[DareDevil]

Hi Anthony,

 

I've sent you a PM. I appreciate medical advice from someone who administers NAD+ by Intravenous infusion as it would be similar dosages for intramuscular injection. However, a brief drip every few seconds isn't the same as the brief time release of muscular injection. I would maybe need to spread each daily dosage into several injections. Believe me, I'd rather avoid pinning several times a day.

 

Thanks

 

DareDevil

[DareDevil]

Hi Turnbuckle,

 

I appreciate your advice, however I do have larger doses than first posted and will be bypassing the intestinal track so that no digestive transformation will modify the precious NAD+. I have expanded my proposed trial protocols to include several additional testing weeks. Hating giving myself intramuscular injections I have to be very motivated to try this drug. Given that the problem is mostly sticking in the needle, I am thinking of possibly adding to the NAD+ in the syringe an EDTA chelator.

 

However, I would only do this if I was sure that there would be no negative chemical interaction, and that the chelator won't prevent the NAD+ from being effectively absorbed by the mitochondria. 

 

Thanks for any reactions to injections combining NAD+ and EDTA.

 

DareDevil

Edited by DareDevil, 24 September 2017 - 06:19 AM.

[DareDevil]

It appears that higher dosages would probably be safe, whether more effective or cost effective is another matter. Here is the only article I found on safety dosages which refer to a maximum safe injection dose of 500mg/kg for a dog breed known as the BEAGLE;

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/15312041

 

Edited by DareDevil, 24 September 2017 - 08:52 AM.

[Daniel Cooper]

I think the thing I would worry about is turning your NAD+ powered into a sterile and safe injectable solution, mainly because I've never done such a thing. 

 

Presumably you'd start with some bacteriostatic water, but the vials of bacteriostatic water I'm familiar with are sealed and really only appropriate for diluting a more concentrated also sterile liquid.

 

How do you start with a powder that probably is not itself sterile and get to your injectable solution?  Please post the details as I have an interest in this.

 

And why IM rather than subq?  A subq injection seems easier.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 24 September 2017 - 02:35 PM.

[DareDevil]

Hi Daniel Cooper,

 

Thanks for your interest and words of warning. I will be injecting intramuscular due to the quantity required which may not absorb well subcutaneously. Also I had issues a few months ago injecting IV substances subQ and had to be operated in the hospital emergency ward for a very large access caused by the injections. This is why I am now posting ahead of time for advice on how to best prevent future accidents.

 

I plan to use a small quantity of pharmaceutical alcohol in the injectable saline solution hopefully to kill any bacteria that may have gotten into the plastic satchel of NAD+ powder. If this doesn't work I can just go to the ER again lol. Unless others here have better advice. Sure it would be great to be able to access perfectly sterile pharma grade diluted NAD+ but we're only in 2017 and I doubt this will become available for many years to come if at all. So I must improvise as I may or save up thousands of dollars for NAD+ IV Drip treatments as well as travel and lodging expenses as there are no such clinics anywhere near me.

 

I guess we'll see how it goes, but so far so good as I've not injected a thing for a while - other than a bit of Testosterone and a Swiss Stem Cell solution. Let me know if you have any other ideas on how to sterilize the solution. Thanks in advance

 

DareDevil

[Daniel Cooper]

If you start with bacteriostatic water like this 30ml Bacteriostatic Water it's already sterile and has 0.9 benzyl alcohol in it as an antibacterial agent.

 

The trick is that those containers are not made to be opened so that you can dump some powder inside, they only have the rubber cap at the top to insert a needle.  I know that some of the body building crowd seems to get some of their material in powder form so presumably someone has figured this out. Just not me unfortunately.

 

 

 

 

 

[aconita]

Bacteriostatic water doesn't sterilize anything, it theoretically keeps bacteria in a static conditions (doesn't allow them to multiply) , theoretically since actually it doesn't but just slows down a bit the process.

 

Bacteriostatic water isn't very nice in high amounts, benzyl alcohol is irritating and injected water stings badly, make sure to use saline bacteriostatic water at least (it doesn't sting).

 

You don't pour the powder in the bacteriostatic water vial but draw the bacteriostatic water with a sterile syringe from the rubber seal (which needs to be properly disinfected first) and squirt it on the powder.

 

Injecting a powder which comes in a plastic bag....mmmm....you really love emergency rooms, do you?

 

Use a 0.22 μπι filter before injecting at least (use just sterile saline water for injections and prepare your dose just before injecting, don't store), that will keep bacteria out which doesn't mean it would be safe to inject but is the first basic measure to take in order to attempt to avoid disaster.

 

My God guys, playing with injecting compounds without basic knowledge is calling for big troubles....                   

[DareDevil]

Hi Aconita,

 

Yes, I will try to obtain a .22 micron filter and hope the molecule of NAD+ is smaller than that or it won't be very useful. You're right I am taking excessive risks playing with chemical matches and have gotten burned a few times already. Thanks therefore for your very helpful advice.

 

DareDevil

[aconita]

Don't worry, NAD molecule is way smaller than that, actually it is small enough to be able to easily permeate transdermally.

[DareDevil]

Wow so one could theoretically use DMSO to bring "sterilized" NAD+ into the bloodstream and tissues?

 

[aconita]

Yes, of course.

 

If NAD isn't pure (contaminated with heavy metals, for example) it will not make safer.

 

Generally speaking transdermal is less efficient than injecting (you need more of it) but ends up in the blood stream in the same way bypassing the digestive processes, of course.

 

Not only DMSO will work as an absorption enhancer but lecithin powder too, sunflower or eggs lecithin would be recommended, granular soy lecithin works well but there are some possible concerns with phytoestrogens an hexane residuals.

 

Lecithin, water and NAD in a blender for a couple of minutes will yield a lliposomal compound for both topical or oral.

 

I would not be surprised if oral liposomal NAD ends up more bio-available than injections.  

 

Personally that would be my preferred choice.

[Daniel Cooper]

But what about the shear quantities of NAD+ you want to move across the dermal/mucosal barriers?  Is moving 100's of mg of material in that manner practical?

 

 

 

 

 

[aconita]

Likely not practical at higher dosages and because of the price but technically feasible.

 

That's one reason why I would rather go oral liposomal.

 

Look at oral vitamin C liposomal 5g or so as effective, if not more, as 100g.IV,

 

 

[DareDevil]

WOW Aconita, you're a well of wisdom !

 

I had no idea liposomal could be superior to IV and honestly can't understand how, but that's due to my extremely limited (read: "absent") bioscience knowledge.

 

 

Liposomes from hydrogenated egg yolk lecithin

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/4080786

 

I will be looking into how to obtain lecithin from eggs and won't be needing to hydrogenate because my blend won't be put into capsules. I find this technique may be much easier than trying to simulate IV drips via intramuscular injection. I much prefer going the route of oral intake, especially if lecithin allows it to magically bypass destruction and unwanted chemical transformation by the digestive track. Thanks for the great advice !

 

Cheers,

 

DareDevil

 

 

Edited by DareDevil, 27 September 2017 - 06:12 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

@aconita

 

Is it really the case that liposomal encapsulation can easily deliver NAD+ through the GI tract?  It seems odd to me that there would be such emphasis on NAD+ precursors if it were that easy.

 

I hope that is the case.

 

 

 

[DareDevil]

Hi Daniel,

 

It seems that for at least some supplements, liposomal formulations are in their early days. One reason can be the profitability at required doses, since NAD+ is fairly expensive with the lowest prices on the market being in the neighborhood of $10/gram prior to transformation, packaging, marketing, shipping, retail margins and final consumer pricing. My trials at wholesale price point will cost about $100/month, but may prove in insufficient dosage depending on bioavailability and what's need to actually boost cellular levels of NAD+ and as this is yet experimental we can understand that it hasn't been yet offered commercially.

 

DD

[Valijon]

Let me help you with a little medical knowledge. First,Dmso can cause minor yet irritating skin burn with itching. If you try dmso you want the highest purity, the 99%. Consider cutting it with something. Another oil perhaps. Water makes an already runny substance worse. Transdermal administration is tricky. Look into the ingredients of something called Salvo. Bodybuilders use it for transdermal testosterone. Even using Salvo, i cant say how much you will get. If you are going to try IM, you need to cook the powder down into something like an olive oil or a cottonseed oil. You need several supplies for this glass beakers,vials, stringes etc. You also need BA and BB to keep the stuff sterile and to keep it all together as a solution, from coming apart. It has to be cooked together. This is going to require you to spend time researching exactly how to do this. Should be similar to what the bodybuilding community is doing. Just use your NAD powder instead of a testosterone powder. For IM injection use about a 1 inch needle in a 21 to 23 guage.

[DareDevil]

Thanks Valijon for sharing your chemlab expertise. By chance I have two full pint bottles of pharma-grade 99% DMSO. But I'm not sure about what would constitute a good carrier. I've already used "Ialuset" a French pharmaceutical hyaluronic acid cream, without issues. This cream vastly reduces the burning effect of the DMSO on surface skin.  

 

As you can tell from my earlier postings in this thread I am fully ignorant of the requirements to make a suspended solution. For intramuscular injections,  I had hoped not to need to use suspension in oils, because these are thick to hard to inject and they also slow the absorption process once in the muscle. I know this after having injected Testosterone for several years by IM. If possible, I'd hope to suspend the NAD+ in sterile saline solution, but understand that this may be even more difficult to blend the mix in an improvised kitchen lab setting than cooking down NAD+ in oil. I assume BA and BB are two types of alcohol or similar? I may try cooking it down in grapeseed oil if you think oils are best, that one is reputed to be the most heat resistant of all.

 

What do you think of oral intake after making a liposomal mixture? Could this possibly deliver a similar punch of NAD+ to each cell? And is so, would I need to use an ultrasound device to make the liposomal process work? That's what it appears from this posting about making liposomal vitamin C:

 

 

Make your own Liposomal Vitamin C, Resveratrol and Curcumin

http://www.longecity...l-and-curcumin/

 

Thanks for your ideas and advice.

 

DD

 

 

[Valijon]

See if you can Alpha Alkylate it for oral. BA and BB are Benzyl Alcohol and Benzyl Benoate or however its spelled. Any chem store or Ebay should fix you up. Look into PG and PEG. Cant recall which of those is oral and whixh is used in a transdermal mix. I dont know about the other stuff posted.

[aconita]

Adding urea to DMSO eliminates the skin sensitization, the garlic taste and improves absorption.

 

Looking better at NAD it turns out having a molecular weight of 663Da, a bit over the 500Da limit for dermal permeability, it is possible that an enhancer as DMSO or lecithin allows for penetration but we are a bit on the edge here, therefore it might be better to skip the transdermal option, just in case.

 

I can't see any reason to try solving a water soluble compound like NAD in an oil, testosterone isn't water soluble and it is a whole different ballgame.

 

I already explained a basic procedure in order to achieve a relatively safe preparation for injections.

 

Benzyl alcohol is better avoided for a number of reasons and NAD becomes quite unstable once in solution, storing it in that form is asking for unnecessary troubles, prepare what you need every time you need it and inject right away, benzyl alcohol would be for making bacteriostatic water which you don't need since you are not going to store NAD in solution.

 

It seems there is quite a bit of confusion with reconstituted peptides and home made steroid preparations, NAD is none of the two, soon or later someone is going to face big troubles, without appropriate knowledge certain things are better left alone.

 

Liposomes are quite fascinating, their ability to deliver entrapped compounds very efficiently is related to phospholipids affinity with cell membranes with which they can fuse.

 

Some basic knowledge:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liposome

 

It might be easier to find sunflower powdered lecithin than eggs lecithin.

 

Ultrasound isn't a smart choice for liposomes preparation, in facts the industry doesn't use it.

 

There are several reason why but just believe me on that.

 

In order to encapsulate a compound inside a liposome energy is needed, ultrasounds provides just that but there are more efficient and easier way to do it (and safer and cheaper too).

 

Industrially they are made by spraying at very high pressure against a steel plate, the kinetic energy does the trick.

 

It would be feasible at home setting level but a bit messy and unpractical because the small amounts needed, industrial production needs are the opposite of yours, efficiency at big amounts against efficiency at small amounts.

 

What about hitting the liposomes with a steel plate instead of the opposite?

 

Here you go: the blender, as efficient and easy as it comes.

 

Not sophisticated enough?

 

Well, do your own proper research and show me a better way, I am here ready to hear.

 

When you run the blender part of the kinetic energy will go in heat, with temperature rising liposomes gets bigger, you don't want that.

 

Liposomes are sophisticated but very simple to obtain (not what the industry wants you to perceive, of course), more isn't better here, keeping the blender on forever only achieve bigger liposomes because of temperature rising and just keeps destroying and remaking them endlessly, no reason to do that, keep it fairly short instead, a couple of minutes is plenty, likely even too much, especially for small amounts. 

 

Liposomes provides protection to the encapsulated compound enhancing shelf life but nevertheless store them always in the fridge and use within 3-4 days.

[Heisok]

aconita, great explanation covering Liposomes. Thanks. I recall you mentioning the blender method before, but with your hit it with steel explanation, I understand now.

 

As far as DMSO concentration, I recall some threads here discussing that higher is not better. When I use it for injuries, I go with 99.9% pharmaceutical grade diluted to about 80%. There seems to be a range depending on what is being carried.

 

Pharmacology of DMSO
Stanley W. Jacob and Robert Herschler
Department of Surgery • Oregon Health Science University • Portland, Oregon  97201

 

https://www.dmso.org...n/herschler.htm

[aconita]

Yes, what I recall is 90% DMSO has the highest absorption (better than 100%).

 

Urea will improve that further.

 

Adding urea to DMSO works very well.

[DareDevil]

Thanks to the kind advice of Aconita, who explained how to use the .22 micron filters, I have taken my first IM shot of NAD+, At first I tried to dose it at 20mg but I got too much on the scale, and had to remove some and got too little, so I had to add more and then decided to try it at what was in there. It was 58mg, possible a couple less once emptied into the syringe as it sticks to the tiny recipient on the scale. I mixed it with 2ml of saline drawn into the syringe, and added the powder from the back after removing the plunger. Then I put the plunger back in partially, shook it and then removed residual air to make it ready for injection.. 2ml saline was in my opinion too much and next time I'll only use 1ml. The shiny sparkling white powder dissolves instantly leaving no traces. I then placed a filter between the syringe and the needle. I used a 1" long 30 gauge needle designed for dental injections. It was very thin and painless, and went deep enough to reach the muscle. The solution was very liquid and went in easily. I immediately felt a touch of nausea when injecting. This stayed for about 15 minutes and faded, merely leaving a bad taste in my mouth. Upon injection I also quickly felt as if I was "electrified" as in sparking and wired. This was a strange feeling I never felt before. A few hours later, looking in the mirror I noticed my face was flushed red. The red flush was gone the following morning. The injection was at nightfall. After a night's sleep I was fairly tired all day but however felt a bit different than usual. I also seemed to think I looked a smidgeon younger when looking in the mirror.  Not in any single e way, it was just and impression and was obviously subjective, and probably a placebo effect due to auto-suggestion. I was going to repeat the injection the following evening, at a lower dose, but stilll feel kind of "wired" and don't think the effects are over yet so I will wait another day. I will report back after taking it again. My initial conclusions are that maybe going over 50mg for a single IM injection might be too much for sudden absorption. IV drips give it one drop at a time every few seconds, and it is highly diluted in saline. From what I gathered they dose a liter of saline with less than I had in my syringe, and feed it to you over one or more hours time. This is why at least at first I will try reducing trial dosages. FWIW, DareDevil

Edited by DareDevil, 21 November 2017 - 11:27 PM.

[Hebbeh]

The fact you felt nausea before finishing the injection and immediately felt "electrified" with a resulting bad taste in your mouth, along with going "deep enough to reach the muscle" would make me suspicious you hit a vein with the needle and ended up doing IV.  When injecting deep enough to penetrate the muscle, you should always aspirate to prevent turning an intramuscular into possibly a dangerous IV injection.  Why not just subq? 

[DareDevil]

Hi Hebbeh,

 

I didn't know that it might make you feel 'electrified' when you hit a vein. That sounds more like hitting a nerve, but I'm no expert at shots. Also, I was nauseous, this is maybe more of an indication of rapid entry of the product into the bloodstream, pointing to the fact that you may well be right with that. Had I not used a .22 micron filter this would be worrisome. However, it is usually administered by IV and I felt positive effects afterwards. I didn't go subQ because I had to have surgery in June due injecting thick IV substances subQ and getting a huge deep abces that had to be removed and scraped.

 

I waited 48 hours before injecting my second dose, this time it was 39 mg by intramuscular injection. I didn't feel nauseous until 24 hours later, and it was milder nausea. From both occurrences, I guess that pure NAD+ injections in these dosages can give you mild nausea. Not sure what that means, if anything. This time again I felt revitalized, my hair feels thicker and although I didn't get flushed again my skin looks a bit better after this second shot. In general I find it makes me feel and look a bit healthier if not younger. More at future dosage intakes.

 

DD

Edited by DareDevil, 23 November 2017 - 11:57 PM.

[DareDevil]

48 hours later I injected 150mg of NAD+ subQ. The 100mg injection didn't make me nauseous but made my jaw and teeth ache a bit. The last one at 150mg make me mildly nauseous for about half an hour. Otherwise all is good. I don't think it hit a vein but who knows? Some are close to the surface. I will keep you all posted with my future tests.

 

DD