10 replies to this topic

[jroseland]

I've been researching Cerebrolsyn and came across a finding that I think is pretty exciting

 

A 2016 randomized, controlled clinical trial found that Cerebrolsyn used alone you get a 300% increase in BDNF, which is pretty good but there's a significant improvement when used with it's cofactor Donepezil, a 600% increase in BDNF and that's sustained for 12 weeks after going off Cerebrolysin.

So if you use Donepezil it's essentially like buying 16 weeks of Cerebrolysin and getting 12 weeks free, but that doesn't even account for the doubling of the BDNF that you get. Cerebrolysin is a fairly expensive Nootropic but it's really a better value if you combine it with Donepezil.

 

• Is my interpretation of the data in the study accurate?
• This trial was conducted on Alzheimer's patients aged on average 75 years old. Is it reasonable to assume that it will have a similar effect on younger, otherwise healthy people?
• Is Donepezil a pretty benign drug? Is there any reason why normal Biohackers wouldn't want to use it combination?
• It looks like there's a small conflict of interest in this study with EVER Neuro Pharma GmbH the manufacturer of Cerebrolysin. Does this mean we should totally discount it's findings? 
• Has anyone tried the two in combination? Care to report?

It looks like a pretty potent combination to me!

[tunt01]

Cerebrolysin should never be used by anyone unless they are in late stage dementia and the last 5-10 years of their life.  It can stimulate neutralizing antibodies that react with endogenous proteins and have counterproductive and damaging behavior in otherwise normal/healthy/younger individuals.

 

This study is done in 75 yr old patients and this study should not be extrapolated to younger individuals, because the follow-up period is different.  The long-term implications of injecting animal proteins from another species into the human body is very problematic.  There is a lack of any real long-term data on cerebrolysin in younger humans.

 

I would encourage you to stop posting about this nonsense cocktail.  It's perverse snake oil.

[jroseland]

So you're not a fan of using Cerebro as performance enhancer for young people...

 

I've heard a couple of objections to it but Cerebrolysin, which I'm researching now, it has a lot of clinical trials done on it. I've read an obscene amount of user reports on Longecity about it and neither in the clinical trials nor in the Biohacker reports have I come across statistically significant incidence of prions disease or negative side effects. You'd expect to hear some negatives about it like you do about Sunifiram, Phenibut or Kratom.

 

Update: I created a poll here to try to get some statistical data as to whether there are many undesirable side effects in otherwise healthy young people

 

Cerebrolysin should never be used by anyone unless they are in late stage dementia and the last 5-10 years of their life.  It can stimulate neutralizing antibodies that react with endogenous proteins and have counterproductive and damaging behavior in otherwise normal/healthy/younger individuals.

 

This study is done in 75 yr old patients and this study should not be extrapolated to younger individuals, because the follow-up period is different.  The long-term implications of injecting animal proteins from another species into the human body is very problematic.  There is a lack of any real long-term data on cerebrolysin in younger humans.

 

I would encourage you to stop posting about this nonsense cocktail.  It's perverse snake oil.

 

Edited by jroseland, 27 September 2017 - 05:32 PM.

[tunt01]

There are something like ~700 foreign proteins in Cerebrolysin, most of which have not been identified.  It is a very dirty, unknown cocktail mixture of pig brains.  It's literally impossible to know the extent of the immune response and when it will show up in the body.  I'm not an immunologist, but you should realize that some people deal with auto-immune/immune problems their entire life whether it manifests in the form of celiac disease or multiple sclerosis.

 

When the body mounts an immune response to a foreign antigen and forms a b-cell memory to the foreign protein/antigen, the body will have a 'permanent' record and could cross react with healthy, endogenous proteins that otherwise might be important.

 

You'll note one individual here who had a severe immune response and underwent antigen tolerization therapy to counter the immune response.  Others in this forum (ScienceGuy) seem to have severe responses to the substance and I suspect it is the instant immune response to a plethora of foreign proteins being put into the human body.

 

If you inject this stuff, I think you are taking a very serious risk.  You can take this viewpoint as simply a theory of the case.  If you want to sit and here and scoop up a bunch of 'positive' reviews off the Internet based on short-term results and not consider the potential long-term consequences of an immune response, more power to you.  

 

You might as well inject recombinant human growth hormone.  That's at least an actual singular, bio-identical peptide, rather than a mixture of largely unknown pig proteins.  Also note, I'm not responding further to this discussion.  A public poll on an Internet forum is not a basis for scientific thought process on the immune risks of injecting animal proteins across species. 

 

Believe whatever you want. 

Edited by prophets, 28 September 2017 - 01:55 PM.

[jroseland]

Your objections to it seem well reasoned to me. However, there's been a lot of clinical trials done with Cerebrolysin and I would expect more of them to note the negative side effects you're describing.

 

I hope to do a podcast interview with primary researcher on the study I mentioned above and I'll get his opinion on your objections to it.

 

Thanks!

There are something like ~700 foreign proteins in Cerebrolysin, most of which have not been identified.  It is a very dirty, unknown cocktail mixture of pig brains.  It's literally impossible to know the extent of the immune response and when it will show up in the body.  I'm not an immunologist, but you should realize that some people deal with auto-immune/immune problems their entire life whether it manifests in the form of celiac disease or multiple sclerosis.

 

When the body mounts an immune response to a foreign antigen and forms a b-cell memory to the foreign protein/antigen, the body will have a 'permanent' record and could cross react with healthy, endogenous proteins that otherwise might be important.

 

You'll note one individual here who had a severe immune response and underwent antigen tolerization therapy to counter the immune response.  Others in this forum (ScienceGuy) seem to have severe responses to the substance and I suspect it is the instant immune response to a plethora of foreign proteins being put into the human body.

 

If you inject this stuff, I think you are taking a very serious risk.  You can take this viewpoint as simply a theory of the case.  If you want to sit and here and scoop up a bunch of 'positive' reviews off the Internet based on short-term results and not consider the potential long-term consequences of an immune response, more power to you.  

 

You might as well inject recombinant human growth hormone.  That's at least an actual singular, bio-identical peptide, rather than a mixture of largely unknown pig proteins.  Also note, I'm not responding further to this discussion.  A public poll on an Internet forum is not a basis for scientific thought process on the immune risks of injecting animal proteins across species. 

 

Believe whatever you want. 

 

[William Sterog]

I remember reading that Cerebrolysin worked through CNTF. What about using p21?

www.longecity.org/forum/topic/65066-cntf-based-peptide-p21/

Edited by William Sterog, 01 October 2017 - 06:43 AM.

[noot_in_the_sky]

I remember reading that Cerebrolysin worked through CNTF. What about using p21?

www.longecity.org/forum/topic/65066-cntf-based-peptide-p21/

 

 

Good, point.

 

 

By the way, wouldn't having BDNF raise by 600% for 12 weeks cause a strong desensitization?

[William Sterog]

I remember reading that Cerebrolysin worked through CNTF. What about using p21?

www.longecity.org/forum/topic/65066-cntf-based-peptide-p21/

Good, point.


By the way, wouldn't having BDNF raise by 600% for 12 weeks cause a strong desensitization?

One could use Semax, which induces TrkB upregulation.

Here, we found that a single application of Semax (50 μg/kg body weight) results in a maximal 1.4-fold increase of BDNF protein levels accompanying with 1.6-fold increase of trkB tyrosine phosporylation levels, and a 3-fold and a 2-fold increase of exon III BDNF and trkB mRNA levels, respectively, in the rat hippocampus.

http://www.sciencedi...006899306022955

This may help elude downregulation

[msbost]

Lets imagine that you developed more synaptic connection or even neurons with the drugs mentioned. How will your body tolerate the increase in energy demands? Can the organs support you in the long-term? will your body create more blood vessels in the brain to nourish the new demands?  There are many more aspects to consider. The drugs itself might be great, but maybe your body is not prepared to handle it. Let the research findings solidify a bit more, particularly results that support an improvement in performance in healthy human adults. If you are set on using the substances then adjust your body so that it can handle a high performing brain.

[normalizing]

relation to donepezil; https://www.scienced...70929093352.htm it is rated the best yet

[msbost]

In response to the above comment the drug would benefit individuals who severely lack neurons that utilize acetylcholine for communication. I am not exactly sure on a method where you can accurately test your cholinergic neurons in the CNS, and the side effects with dopenzil are nasty. Assuming that you are healthy, you have unknown (or maybe no) benefit from the drug and a certain side-effect.