27 replies to this topic

[ironfistx]

I have taken align everyday for like a year.

[Dorian Grey]

Interesting to see this pop up, as I'd just gone off my probiotic (Culturelle) for the first time in about 5 years.  A financial crunch had me prioritizing, and probiotics ain't cheep.  

 

I was staying with my FOS prebiotic, & figured this would hold me over till I got my property taxes paid.  

 

I wound up having some GI distress...  First time in years!  I had eaten two cloves of raw/pickled garlic from my spicy carrots that came with my customary Mexican meal around 3 days after I quit the Culturelle, & figured it was the raw garlic that cause this, but my symptoms persisted.  I had eaten this garlic before without trouble, but the gas and loose stool lasted half the week.  

 

About the time this GI issue resolved, I ran into trouble again after a boozy lunch of fish tacos (I'm in San Diego, so Mexican fare is a staple!).  

 

I work in surgery, & you can't just step out for a moment when nature calls while you're in the middle of a 4 hour case.  Couldn't believe the difference going off my probiotic made, but after a couple of weeks I had to do something.  

 

Went back on the Culturelle, & everything returned to normal, literally within 24 hours.  

 

I'd read the jokes about growing older (I'm 61)...  "Never trust a fart" etc, but I never knew life without probiotics might really be like this.  

 

Nevermore!  I'm back on probiotics for life!  The peace of mind is priceless!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 25 September 2017 - 06:17 AM.

[aconita]

It doesn't sound right, eventually your microbioma got screwed in some way, by the probiotics taking over it?

 

Maybe....

 

I wouldn't be happy with that but those guys selling probiotics will love it.

 

I will get off them and work on fixing my own microbioma, inulin is way cheaper than FOS and by personal experience as good as it comes.

 

Gluten isn't friendly with microbioma, I would try to avoid it, microbioma takes time to adjust but provided the right environment it does, be patient and smart.

 

And don't worry about the casual fart, the anesthetized patient isn't likely to notice it. :D

[Dorian Grey]

Don't know if I've become addicted to Culturelle, but it's a good thing in my humble opinion.  

 

I hadn't suffered a bout of diarrhea, cramps, abdominal pain or bubbly farts in over half a decade.  

 

I'd almost forgotten what it was like to have GI issues, & I'm rather fond of beer.  

 

One a day of my little lactobacillus rhamnosus / LGG & I can wear the same underwear all week!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 26 September 2017 - 07:17 AM.

[aconita]

Addiction is never a good thing.

 

You shouldn't suffer bouts of diarrhea, cramps, abdominal pain or bubbly farts anyway, that just isn't the reality of an healthy individual, covering up isn't a smart answer to the issue, the underlying causes aren't addressed and that isn't a good strategy.

 

I might suggest looking into BPC157.

[pamojja]

Addiction is never a good thing.

 

Funny you say that in respect to bacteria. In fact, we are all addicted to clean air, clean water, clean food and diverse bacteria. Don't think that will change.

 

[aconita]

In facts nobody on the planet has clean air, clean water and clean food.

 

Do you mean addiction can't be bad since we are all addicted to breathing, drinking and feeding?

 

Than you missed out going to the toilet and sleeping, at least...

 

We come well equipped by mother nature with our own microbioma, if that doesn't work properly fixing it should be the priority, not finding an artificial substitute.

 

If your knee hurts you try to find out why in order to solve the cause, you don't just reach for the nearest surgeon to cut it off and substitute with a prosthesis, why your microbioma should deserve a different approach?

[pamojja]

If your knee hurts you try to find out why in order to solve the cause, you don't just reach for the nearest surgeon to cut it off and substitute with a prosthesis, why your microbioma should deserve a different approach?

 

Don't think that example does really apply. We need air, water, food, sleep, metabolism and bacteria in an ongoing basis. There isn't any technical 'prosthesis' to replace any of them.

[sdxl]

It doesn't sound right, eventually your microbioma got screwed in some way, by the probiotics taking over it?

 

Maybe....

 

I wouldn't be happy with that but those guys selling probiotics will love it.

 

I will get off them and work on fixing my own microbioma, inulin is way cheaper than FOS and by personal experience as good as it comes.

 

Gluten isn't friendly with microbioma, I would try to avoid it, microbioma takes time to adjust but provided the right environment it does, be patient and smart.

 

And don't worry about the casual fart, the anesthetized patient isn't likely to notice it. :D

 

I'm pretty sure "microbioma" isn't an English word, microbiota and microbiome are. 

[aconita]

We need air, water, food, sleep, metabolism and bacteria in an ongoing basis. There isn't any technical 'prosthesis' to replace any of them.

 

No, intestinal microbiomE doesn't need any bacteria on an ongoing base, in fact after a few weeks from birth what is there is there, end of the game, no way to change it permanently.

 

Probiotics are an artificial add on/replacement just like a prosthesis for a knee or wearing glasses for the eye, if analogies are allowed. 

[Heisok]

aconita, this is exactly what might be happening with Dorian Gray. They have a problem (Symptoms) which, although it might not be attributed to any given dysfunction, the Probiotic they take eliminates the problem (Symptoms). Maybe their microbiome was not as well diversified as some at birth, and shortly after.

 

They have found a probiotic which plugs a hole in their microbiome, with the results being a complete elimination of the symptoms. Trying to correct their microbiome might not be possible. I would gladly take Insulin, If I had a failure of my Pancreas. Why should I be saddled with a less than effective microbiome? I believe that you are correct, that generally the Probiotic bacteria do not permanently populate the microbiome. Oh well, Science has given a solution for some.

 

I wear glasses, and am quite happy to every day of my life. They are a blessing.

 

 

 

We need air, water, food, sleep, metabolism and bacteria in an ongoing basis. There isn't any technical 'prosthesis' to replace any of them.

 

No, intestinal microbiomE doesn't need any bacteria on an ongoing base, in fact after a few weeks from birth what is there is there, end of the game, no way to change it permanently.

 

Probiotics are an artificial add on/replacement just like a prosthesis for a knee or wearing glasses for the eye, if analogies are allowed. 

 

 

 

[pamojja]

No, intestinal microbiomE doesn't need any bacteria on an ongoing base, in fact after a few weeks from birth what is there is there, end of the game, no way to change it permanently.

 

Probiotics are an artificial add on/replacement just like a prosthesis for a knee or wearing glasses for the eye, if analogies are allowed.

 

Yeah, maybe I should throw my reading-glasses away, so I can't read what you write..

 

But seriously, I have been treated with antibiotics injections at birth (pneumonia) and repeatedly during early childhood (tonsilitis, rispiratory, meningitis). Shouldn't have any diverse microbiome at all anymore, which simply isn't the case: https://docs.google....t#gid=368328141.

 

Also hunter/gatherer like the Hadza seem to have very strong variation between the dry season and the rest of the year. With a more omnivorous diet like in the west, their microbiome seems to become very similar to those of industrialized nations. With the end of the dry season their particular microbiota just reappears: http://science.scien...nt/357/6353/802
 

Microbiome does change with diet and probiotics. Also a short spell of diarrhea can change it quite fast:

http://phenomena.nat...icrobiome-self/

 

[aconita]

I am sorry but I have to say that it seems you don't grasp how intestinal microbiome works, in facts the link you posted simply confirm what I maintain: microbiome is fixable because of its very dynamic nature and doesn't need any artificial replacement.

 

Wearing glasses, or getting a knee prosthesis for that matter, might not be always avoidable and it is a good thing that those are available but in most cases aren't necessary at all and only worsens life quality.

 

 

 

[joelcairo]

Please provide some documentation showing that consumption of yogurt or probiotics is harmful in any way. I mean an actual study, not a theoretical argument

[Dorian Grey]

I take pre & probiotics hoping to bend the ratio of gut flora towards more gram positive and less gram negative bacteria.  Lactobacillus is particularly effective at modifying this ratio as the lactic acid it gives off suppresses gram negative bacterial growth.  

 

Gram negative bacteria give off lipopolysaccharide/endotoxin which is highly inflammatory to the immune system.  

 

Lower inflammation and you slow aging, hence the term inflammaging.  A good deal in my book.  The peace and quiet in my GI tract is icing on the cake.  

[aconita]

You provide a formal clinical trial assessing probiotic safety first.

 

Anyway in despite of the thread title we ended up arguing about if it would be more appropriate to solve the cause of the issue instead of covering that up with an unnecessary intervention leading to addiction, which is a different matter than if probiotics are or aren't harmful

 

.

 

 

[sdxl]

You can't generalize probiotics as a whole, nor can you generalize the risks taking them. Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG and Saccharomyces boulardii may cause infections in very rare occasions. That doesn't mean other probiotics carry the same risk.

 

If a probiotic seems to sort a beneficial effect for a condition that you have, why wouldn't you use it? Most people would be glad they have found something that works. 

[Leni]

What about overgrowth of specific bacteria strains; perhaps loss of diversity; (unpredictable) changes in gene expression as a result of permanent probiotic-use? We simply don't know as of yet. Research into the human microbiome is still in its infancy, let alone research into the effects of using probiotics. So Aconita can't prove that permanently taking probiotics could do harm since there appears to be no decent body of evidence; vice versa Joelcairo can't prove that permanently using probiotics couldn't do harm since research is (still) lacking. That discussion wrong vs right could thus go on for quite a while.

But since research is still in its infancy: why risk using a probiotic permanently? Personally I agree that looking into the root/cause of these chronic GI-tract problems should take priority.

 

As to Aconita's comment that the human microbiome is more or less stable: it appears in general that is true, however in case of infection that seems to be different. Several studies also suggest that after antibiotic use the gut microbiome reverses to the state of pre-antibiotic use within a matter of weeks, however, other studies point out what may be more permanent changes after antibiotic use:  

1. http://www.microbiol...3543765467B47E6
2. http://www.tandfonli...4161/gmic.25321

With regard to stability of the human microbiome there is a study that I personally find really fascinating, albeit unfortunately with only two study subjects (and the assessment methods that were used were rather sensitive, as stated below). Link to the actual study: http://https://genom...omedcentral.com

(I just ran into a nice summary a microbiologist gave on Quora of the conclusions of this study. As I think she gives a nice overview of the study and its caveats, I'll copy that summary. Source: Tirumalai Kamala, microbiologist https://www.quora.co...ns-microbiome))

 

 

“A recent peer-reviewed study suggests that travel can temporarily change gut microbiota, that such a change reverts to pre-travel state once travel is done. Enteric (gut) infection, on the other hand, appears to create a competitive environment where pre-infection species could be replaced by closely related ones.

The study followed two male volunteers for one year: "349 health and lifestyle variables spanning fitness, diet, exercise, bowel movements, mood, and illness". "Each day, subjects were asked to collect stool and saliva samples in order to measure the dynamics of gut and oral microbial communities".

They report “Travel and enteric infection are associated with profound community disturbance”. 

Travel-associated microbial community disruption. Subject A relocated from “a major American metropolitan area to the capital of a developing nation in Southeast Asia between days 71 and 122 of the study”. “had diarrhea on days 80 to 85 and 104 to 113”. 

Travel-associated disruption in Subject A was temporary and reverted back to pre-travel microbiota within 14 days of return. Authors call this the environmental disturbance model of microbiome state transition. Temporary shift in microbial composition in terms of species reverted back once travel-associated disruption ended.
 

Food poisoning-associated microbial community disruption. Subject B had an episode of food poisoning, “during which the subject tested culture positive for Salmonella sp. Consistent with this diagnosis, reads from the Enterobacteriaceae (Salmonella’s parent family) accounted for a median of 10.1% of daily reads during the diarrheal illness and peaked at 29.3% of reads on day 159”.

Infection-associated disruption in Subject B did not revert back to pre-infection state during the remaining 3 months of follow-up. Authors call this the community disturbance model. There was a shift in microbial composition in terms of species, while functional stability was maintained. How so? Pre-infection species were replaced by closely related ones. Infection-associated gut microbiota changes suggests two things:

1. That disruption caused by pathogenic microbes creates de novo competition among closely related gut commensals.

2. Pre-infection gut commensal residents may not necessarily win such a competition.

 

Caveats to the study:

1. Too few subjects. Only two, both male.

2. Only one method of assessment, 16S ribosomal RNA. Too sensitive. Requires normalization, which in turn creates artifacts. Cannot distinguish stable inhabitant from microbes passing through. Sweet-spot methodology would be one that combined 16S ribosomal RNA with microbial cultures. Problem is we don't know how to culture the majority of microbes that inhabit our body.

3. Only examined stool and saliva (ended up having saliva data from only one subject).

Travel-based changes suggests that location change could indeed change a person's microbiome since the environment would definitely change, and depending on the scope of location change, diet could change modestly to profoundly as well. A couple of recent studies (Human gut microbiome viewed across age and geography,Impact of diet in shaping gut microbiota revealed by a comparative study in children from Europe and rural Africa) showed that diet sculpts distinct microbiota. Thus, with a location change, both environment and diet would impose a microbiome change. What would such changes likely be? Stable (autochthonous) inhabitants  may be replaced to a degree. Non-stable (allochthonous) inhabitants would likely be replaced to a greater degree.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Leni, 27 September 2017 - 10:02 AM.

[Darryl]

I don't think probiotics are harmful, but a consistent message from trials is they don't effectively compete for niches with established microbes. They may briefly help with post-antibiotic diarrhea, but they just pass through like breeze through open windows.

 

This shouldn't be that surprising, given that of all the bacterial strains I've seen in probiotics, only Bifidobacterium adolescentis is abundant in healthy GI tracts. Lactobaccilus sp., as found in Culturelle, isn't a prominent GI taxa, its far more common in the vaginal microbiota. Perhaps probiotics will offer more than post-antibiotic diarrhea prevention when they include other beneficial species adapted to and abundant in the gut (Faecalbacterium prauznitzii, Akkermansia muciniphila, Ruminococcus bromii, Roseburia intestinalis, maybe Prevotella copri, etc). Most of these have been cultured, but because they aren't found in fermented foods they don't have regulatory presumptions of safety and would require expensive safety testing.

[aconita]

OK, if we prefer to keep missing the point just for the sake of arguing that's fine...but enough with me.

[aconita]

My last post has been written before the last 2 which finally gets to the point.

 

Microbiome is complex and exact dynamics aren't fully clear, ingesting probiotics isn't necessarily the smartest fix-all strategy, it might have its place but that is a different matter.

 

Since microbiome isn't static and even small changes in lifestyle/nutrition can profoundly affect it issues are better addressed searching for root causes which in most cases are solvable and do carry other implications too.

 

Covering up those issues with probiotics might be harmful by not addressing the implications that a faulty microbiome involves, in this sense harm would be an indirect consequence of probiotics use, not by probiotics themselves.

 

Anyway probiotics can be harmful by themselves too, but that is another consideration and likely the less concerning one for the majority of the population.

 

Passing wind at the first date might feel a bit embarrassing but health wise is totally irrelevant, a screwed immune system which might lead to cancer or other unpleasant outcomes personally worries me a tiny bit more and I am not sure that avoiding the fart by gobbling on probiotics would be all I need to feel at my ease.

[Dorian Grey]

Possible risks vs evidence of reward is a common issue with most all supplements.  

 

Here's a paper that goes into quite a bit of detail on the possible rewards: 

 

http://functionalfoo...es/92585541.pdf

 

repairing ‘leaky’ epithelial barriers, negating the source of pro-inflammatory stimuli associated with low-grade endotoxemia, enhanced production of short chain fatty acids with anti-inflammatory properties (e.g. butyrate) as well as increase synthesis of antimicrobial peptides that influence inflammation resolution pathways in the mucosa, ligands for innate immune system receptors, directly influencing key pro-inflammatory pathways, stimulate the differentiation and activity of important immune cells (e.g., dendritic cells, T cells), and subsequently increase production of important regulatory cytokines, including interleukin-10 (IL-10) and transforming growth factor-beta (TGF-B); and clinical trials demonstrating probiotics do affect common biomarkers of inflammation, including C-reactive protein.

 

Reads like a wish list of desirable effects, though I'll admit immune modulation could have some hidden and potentially substantial downside risks.  With all the pre & probiotic use going on, I would think substantial negative effects would have started to become noticeable.  

 

Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG also appears to colonize the colon wall fairly well, though lasting/permanent colonies did not result: 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...icles/PMC91031/

 

"This study showed that strain GG was able to attach in vivo to colonic mucosae and, although the attachment was temporary, to remain for more than a week after discontinuation of GG administration."

 

Culturelle also ranked #1 in quality here:

 

https://labdoor.com/...ings/probiotics

 

I'm 5 years on Culturelle, and still feeling like Dorian Grey

[aconita]

Cool, but in despite of all the repairing proprieties after 10 years on it you are still back to square 1 as soon as you stop supplementing, how comes?

[Dorian Grey]

A lot of the supps I take only seem to work so long as I take them.  

 

I've been taking Vitamin-C for over a quarter century, but when I go off it my gums still start bleeding when I brush my teeth.  

 

Inositol sends me to sleep every night, but only when I take it. 

 

I hate it when my gums start bleeding & I can't fall asleep, so I continue to take these & all my supps that have a noticeable and positive effect, even though they don't offer permanent "cures".  

[aconita]

Fair enough, I guess...but wouldn't be a permanent cure be more desirable and likely leading to better overall health results?

 

Isn't there the possibility that those patches offers a good enough excuse for not taking the effort to solve the real causes?

 

I am not against temporary patches or even long term ones, for that matter, if better alternatives aren't available...but did you really tried your best?

 

 

 

 

[joelcairo]

What is this permanent cure you are offering? If it's some kind of dietary change or supplement that you have to keep up forever, that's not permanent, is it?

[aconita]

You are not talking to a door to door salesman here, if this is kept on an acceptable intellectual level good, otherwise I have better things to do. 

[kurdishfella]

Our immune system (skin) fights against bacteria in the air all the time. And believe it or not but humans are ALWAYS sick just to different extents. Because our immune system is always fighting only when it is a different stronger intruder do we feel it more.

 

Probiotics even if you somehow got 100 billion probiotics and millions of different ones included. Your body will always go back to its homeostasis of bacteria in the gut which is depended on your health in just a few hours.