21 replies to this topic

[Pour_la_Science]

I've watched recently Prometheus (a.k.a Alien: the sequel).

I like the photography in the film, the lights and the way the director Ridley Scott knows how to entertain his audience.

But once again I've noticed the same message behind the movie:

The quest against aging is like "the desire to become Gods". And eventually persons displaying this desire will be crushed, annihilated by their ego so to speak.

 

For those who didn't see the movie and to not spoil, in Promotheus, it's the story of a very old (and brilliant) man who goes into space with his crew to find the (supposedly) creators of Human race to learn the secret of immortality. Besides they will also meet some aliens (that's the most entertaining part in fact).

 

I've watched also the sequel of this (Alien the covenant) and this time the stance was more a luddite one: Colonists from Earth trying to reach a new home and eventually they will only meet more aliens...

 

I've found this movie deeply depressing. I've learned that Ridley Scott is 79 y.o this year. I suspect it explains a lot...

Edited by Pour_la_Science, 27 September 2017 - 02:06 PM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

This movie was filled with naivity, misconcepts and illogisms.

One of the illogical things is the very exact old man trying to ask "the engineers" for the secret of immortality, while he has on his availability a working human hibernation technology. He had only to hibernate until the science gets him the immortality.

 

[nickthird]

This movie was filled with naivity, misconcepts and illogisms.

One of the illogical things is the very exact old man trying to ask "the engineers" for the secret of immortality, while he has on his availability a working human hibernation technology. He had only to hibernate until the science gets him the immortality.

 

I think idea in the movie was that even in the far future immortality is not achieved (some age plateau is reached). Since there is no progress for a long time, or a reason is found why it may not be possible to achieve immortality, the old man only had one hope -- finding the maker.

 

This movie is really similar to Blade Runner is some ways. In Blade Runner the replicants are trying to meet their maker to extend their own lifespan.

[Danail Bulgaria]

 

This movie was filled with naivity, misconcepts and illogisms.

One of the illogical things is the very exact old man trying to ask "the engineers" for the secret of immortality, while he has on his availability a working human hibernation technology. He had only to hibernate until the science gets him the immortality.

 

I think idea in the movie was that even in the far future immortality is not achieved (some age plateau is reached). Since there is no progress for a long time, or a reason is found why it may not be possible to achieve immortality, the old man only had one hope -- finding the maker.

 

This movie is really similar to Blade Runner is some ways. In Blade Runner the replicants are trying to meet their maker to extend their own lifespan.

 

 

I understood, that the idea in the movie may have been, that the immortality will never be achieved. But the representation of the idea is still naive, since while representing it, the movie is showing technologies, that make it possible

Edited by seivtcho, 23 October 2017 - 09:16 AM.

[nickthird]

I understood, that the idea in the movie may have been, that the immortality will never be achieved. But the representation of the idea is still naive, since while representing it, the movie is showing technologies, that make it possible

 

 

Which technologies (apart from hibernation, which doesn't count)?

[YOLF]

 

 

This movie was filled with naivity, misconcepts and illogisms.

One of the illogical things is the very exact old man trying to ask "the engineers" for the secret of immortality, while he has on his availability a working human hibernation technology. He had only to hibernate until the science gets him the immortality.

 

I think idea in the movie was that even in the far future immortality is not achieved (some age plateau is reached). Since there is no progress for a long time, or a reason is found why it may not be possible to achieve immortality, the old man only had one hope -- finding the maker.

 

This movie is really similar to Blade Runner is some ways. In Blade Runner the replicants are trying to meet their maker to extend their own lifespan.

 

 

I understood, that the idea in the movie may have been, that the immortality will never be achieved. But the representation of the idea is still naive, since while representing it, the movie is showing technologies, that make it possible

 

I think the moral of the story is to look to yourself, not to some far away impossibility. 

 

A single colloidal unobtainium infusion will surely cure and reverse aging, but we'll just have to make due with what we've got.

Edited by YOLF, 24 October 2017 - 01:56 AM.

[nickthird]

I think the moral of the story is to look to yourself, not to some far away impossibility. 

 

 

 

 

A single colloidal unobtainium infusion will surely cure and reverse aging, but we'll just have to make due with what we've got.

 

 

I thought it was more about evolution. The aliens created people and wanted to destroy them, and then people created the machines that wanted to destroy them that created the new alien etc. It's like a cycle of the creature going against the creators.

 

The whole backstory of the reason they went there to cure aging, was to me insignificant / irrelevant. People would go there just out of curiosity, and this was just one person's wish who played a very small role in the movie.

 

Maybe it was also about if you make something creative you cannot predict it, and the unpredictability would lead to problems.

[Danail Bulgaria]

 

I understood, that the idea in the movie may have been, that the immortality will never be achieved. But the representation of the idea is still naive, since while representing it, the movie is showing technologies, that make it possible

 

 

Which technologies (apart from hibernation, which doesn't count)?

 

 

Really Why not counting it It is the main one. A sure and a secure, safe long time human hibernation device. What else would you need in order to become immortal

 

The other technology that was in my mind is the humanoid robot - the son that the old man never had. The robot had a strong AI and was cappable of human grade thinking and planning, e.g. he had a humanoid artifitial neural network. There are people, who believe, that can become immortal by uploading their brain in such a device.

[nickthird]

Really Why not counting it It is the main one. A sure and a secure, safe long time human hibernation device. What else would you need in order to become immortal

 

The other technology that was in my mind is the humanoid robot - the son that the old man never had. The robot had a strong AI and was cappable of human grade thinking and planning, e.g. he had a humanoid artifitial neural network. There are people, who believe, that can become immortal by uploading their brain in such a device.

 

 

I don't count hibernation because I assume technological progress in the area of longevity stopped in the movie, so hibernating to wake up in the future would not help you reach immortality.

 

Although it would be much more useful for the old man to hibernate and let his workers ask the aliens how to cure aging, then wake up only when the cure is achieved... So in that sense it was kind of dumb for him to wake up and take all the risks involved.

 

Becoming "immortal" by making a digital copy of yourself is pretty much the same as becoming immortal by creating a clone of yourself at best. That is not the meaning of the word immortality in my mind (which in the human context means the preservation of the consciousness to me).

 

But again, if you mean by "uploading" that the brain of the person would just be moved into an artificial body, or only the part of the brain that houses the consciousness would be simply moved into an artificial brain, then yes that could lead to very extended lifespan and it indeed did not make any sense that the old man stayed in his original body when he clearly had the option to replace it.

[Danail Bulgaria]

 

Really Why not counting it It is the main one. A sure and a secure, safe long time human hibernation device. What else would you need in order to become immortal

 

The other technology that was in my mind is the humanoid robot - the son that the old man never had. The robot had a strong AI and was cappable of human grade thinking and planning, e.g. he had a humanoid artifitial neural network. There are people, who believe, that can become immortal by uploading their brain in such a device.

 

 

I don't count hibernation because I assume technological progress in the area of longevity stopped in the movie, so hibernating to wake up in the future would not help you reach immortality.

 

Although it would be much more useful for the old man to hibernate and let his workers ask the aliens how to cure aging, then wake up only when the cure is achieved... So in that sense it was kind of dumb for him to wake up and take all the risks involved.

 

Becoming "immortal" by making a digital copy of yourself is pretty much the same as becoming immortal by creating a clone of yourself at best. That is not the meaning of the word immortality in my mind (which in the human context means the preservation of the consciousness to me).

 

But again, if you mean by "uploading" that the brain of the person would just be moved into an artificial body, or only the part of the brain that houses the consciousness would be simply moved into an artificial brain, then yes that could lead to very extended lifespan and it indeed did not make any sense that the old man stayed in his original body when he clearly had the option to replace it.

 

 

Copy-pasting the workings iof your brain in an artifitial body, or making a copies of yourself (clones) is not immortality in my view either. Thumbs up from me for that one.

However, there are people, who sciencerly believe, that this is the way for them to become immortal. Through the posts, that I have red in this forum, I think, that I managed to understand the logics in their minds, that drives those ideas. And their arguments really are strong.
 

The long term hibernation still is the way because even if longevity sciences has stopped, there is no way the medicine to has stopped its development. Stem cells rejuvenations of different kind would be developed for example. No fundamental law of sciences stops the development of stem cells related rejuvenations.

[nickthird]

Copy-pasting the workings iof your brain in an artifitial body, or making a copies of yourself (clones) is not immortality in my view either. Thumbs up from me for that one.

 

 

 

 

However, there are people, who sciencerly believe, that this is the way for them to become immortal. Through the posts, that I have red in this forum, I think, that I managed to understand the logics in their minds, that drives those ideas. And their arguments really are strong.
 

The long term hibernation still is the way because even if longevity sciences has stopped, there is no way the medicine to has stopped its development. Stem cells rejuvenations of different kind would be developed for example. No fundamental law of sciences stops the development of stem cells related rejuvenations.

 

 

What are their arguments for copy pasting bringing immortality? In the old times according to TV shows and movies, people believed that if their name survives in history that is a form of immortality too but I never got why.

 

I agree that in real life hibernation is the solution, I just think the case in the movie might have been different. It is a dystopian future in the movie and in those cases usually the negative technology has no limits but the positive one is very limited (unbalanced view).

[Danail Bulgaria]

Their arguments comes from the question what are we. What is the something, that makes us who we are, and how can we protect that something forever. There are people, who strongly believe, that they are their brain. They mean, that they are the workings of their own brain. That is why they want to prtect the way their brain works. Their plan is to save their brain until it is possible the connections between the brain cells to be uploaded in a machine.

 

Some people think, that if their name survives in history that is a form of immortality, because of simmilar arguments. Their name survuves in history because of the things acheived. And the things acheived show pieces of their mind. How their brain has been working. For example if you have written many books, even just an ususal literature for reading, many brain thinking speciphic things leave a trait in the workings. For example if you have been good or bad, happy or sdad, what have been your beliefs, the time period, that you have been living, your material state - rich or poor, etc. The best would be if you leave an autbiography after the books, or the things, that you will be remembered for.

[nickthird]

Their arguments comes from the question what are we. What is the something, that makes us who we are, and how can we protect that something forever. There are people, who strongly believe, that they are their brain. They mean, that they are the workings of their own brain. That is why they want to prtect the way their brain works. Their plan is to save their brain until it is possible the connections between the brain cells to be uploaded in a machine.

 

Some people think, that if their name survives in history that is a form of immortality, because of simmilar arguments. Their name survuves in history because of the things acheived. And the things acheived show pieces of their mind. How their brain has been working. For example if you have written many books, even just an ususal literature for reading, many brain thinking speciphic things leave a trait in the workings. For example if you have been good or bad, happy or sdad, what have been your beliefs, the time period, that you have been living, your material state - rich or poor, etc. The best would be if you leave an autbiography after the books, or the things, that you will be remembered for.

 

I could see that somehow maybe if I didn't have a consciousness. Those people sound like they have trouble experiencing emotions and life in general. Or maybe they were born without an actual consciousness, as I am sure some people are because there are people born every which way.

[Danail Bulgaria]

What do you mean by consciousness? In my oppinion, whatever consciousness is, it is a product of the brain - some workings of the brain if you wish. In that meaning, you can resurrect the consciousness after the death, if you protect the brain from decomposition - after the death from aging, you may simply put the brain in a jar with formaline (formaldehide solution) the very same formaline, that is being used for storing corpses in the human anatomy departments, where the doctors are being teached - and wait until much faster computers come, that to be able to model the entire neural network. Then your brain can be included in a parafine block - as the histological samples are being processed today, sliced in histological depth slices - by using standart, maybe even existing today large enough patohystological slicing tools, scanned - with an usual digital camera and an usual microscope, both existing today, and the nrural network to be 3d-modelled fro the slices - on the very same way the 3d reconstructions are being done from MRI slices today. After the modelling, the ready neural network can be loaded in the above superfast computer, and put to action - on the same way that artifitial neural network designing tools do it today. The problem now is the slow computer peeed. Even the fastest supercomputer can't emulate a single entire human brain neural network.

[nickthird]

What do you mean by consciousness? In my oppinion, whatever consciousness is, it is a product of the brain - some workings of the brain if you wish. In that meaning, you can resurrect the consciousness after the death, if you protect the brain from decomposition - after the death from aging, you may simply put the brain in a jar with formaline (formaldehide solution) the very same formaline, that is being used for storing corpses in the human anatomy departments, where the doctors are being teached - and wait until much faster computers come, that to be able to model the entire neural network. Then your brain can be included in a parafine block - as the histological samples are being processed today, sliced in histological depth slices - by using standart, maybe even existing today large enough patohystological slicing tools, scanned - with an usual digital camera and an usual microscope, both existing today, and the nrural network to be 3d-modelled fro the slices - on the very same way the 3d reconstructions are being done from MRI slices today. After the modelling, the ready neural network can be loaded in the above superfast computer, and put to action - on the same way that artifitial neural network designing tools do it today. The problem now is the slow computer peeed. Even the fastest supercomputer can't emulate a single entire human brain neural network.

 

Having a consciousness is part of the reason you wake up in the same body every day. If you were to make a perfect copy of the brain maybe another one would emerge, but I would not wake up in the other body. I would still wake up in the original body, so I would still die with my body.

 

By the way, you cannot do this today. I worked in a similar area to this myself and we don't know a lot about neurons and glia cells, and nobody is simulating any close to even the full function of a single cell with all the different neurotransmitters and whatnot. The simulations I am aware of are not copies of the original, they are just toy models or very very rough approximations.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Yes, this is not the correct way to immortality, according to me either. My oppionion is that we are not only our brain, but also our DNA and the product of its code. Thus it is not enough to save your current state of the brain in order to be immortal. My way is the constant rejuvenation. And this is my sadness - very slow progress there. Too slow before my time comes afer less than a dozen of decades.

[nickthird]

Yes, this is not the correct way to immortality, according to me either. My oppionion is that we are not only our brain, but also our DNA and the product of its code. Thus it is not enough to save your current state of the brain in order to be immortal. My way is the constant rejuvenation. And this is my sadness - very slow progress there. Too slow before my time comes afer less than a dozen of decades.

 

I am not sure what you mean by "we are not only our brain". I think it is likely that consciousness is a physical thing in the brain.

 

I don't really know a lot of technical stuff about how cryonics works today, but ever since I first heard of it maybe 13-15 years ago I decided that if I can afford it I will go for it when my time comes. I do have many more decades to wait for the technology to improve. I am hoping that my consciousness will survive the process but who knows, maybe only parts of the brain will or maybe a new me will have to be created to wake me up.

[Danail Bulgaria]

I mean "we are not only our brain" directly and literary. We are our DNA and its representation. The brain and its consciousness are only a part of that DNA representation. Is it so hard to be understood

 

It is a philosophical issue of what are we. It seems that everyone has his own person speciphic different view.

 

Yes, cryonics can save the entire body, so it should be enough to preserve your essence, whatever it is, until it becomes possible to become immortal.

[MightyMouse]

Prometheus was a huge blunder and embarassment to Alien merchandise. Such vast amount of money and talent (cinematography) wasted on terrible screenwriting. Made me so sad.

[poutintsev]

Look, it's the movie that is made for general public, majority of which are idiots. Don't expect anything clever out of it. If the movie was really clever most of the common-folks would not understand it and it would fail at the box office.

 

The point of this movie was to make money and it succeeded at that. I doubt, that Ridley Scott is as dumb as some things in his movies, he just understands what the hillbillies want to watch.

[MightyMouse]

There's tons of clever and sophisticated movies that were also a hit at the box office. Speaking of sci-fi: Blade Runner, Space Odyssey, Alien, I could go on... Prometheus was plain retarded. I don't belive for a second that smart writers deliberately dumb down movies and create ridiculous plot holes in order to appeal to general public. Stupid and bad movies are stupid and bad because the writers who wrote them are stupid and bad. 

[poutintsev]

There's tons of clever and sophisticated movies that were also a hit at the box office. Speaking of sci-fi: Blade Runner, Space Odyssey, Alien, I could go on... Prometheus was plain retarded. I don't belive for a second that smart writers deliberately dumb down movies and create ridiculous plot holes in order to appeal to general public. Stupid and bad movies are stupid and bad because the writers who wrote them are stupid and bad. 

 

I doubt that the movie writers are really that dumb. If they were, smart writers would take their place. There is huge competition in Hollywood. They really make movies stupid, so that average stupid person who goes to cinema would understand it. It's just playing it safe: the smarter the movie the less people would understand it.

Edited by poutintsev, 02 November 2017 - 05:40 PM.