130 replies to this topic

[mccoy]

 On the side note when I am trying to imagine what my ancestor's diet was during winter - its hard to find an edible plant under half a meter of snow. From historic reports, it was mostly meat even in summers, so I should have pretty decent genetic machinery for this mode.

 

This is something which has always made me curious. Ancestors in Africa eating mostly meat? No other foods? No fruits, no nuts, no wild legumes, no tubers, no leaves?

The global ice age? Of which there is no scientific reports to my knowledge? A global temporary ice age because of huge eruptions like the Lake Toba volcano? That's possible but for how long? Reference to archeaological articles? References to papers on quaternary geology, complete with enough climatological markers????

 

Where are these 'historical' reports and what is their degree of credibility? Known history to my knowledge carries no reports of people having to eat only meat, not even the pre-imperial Mongols who ate lots of dairy products together with meat (high protein), maybe just the eskimos.

 

And, as already told, there are no populations enjoying remarkable longevity (blue zones) who ate only meat or practiced a keto diet . On the contrary, their diets where based mainly on carbs, moderate protein and consumption of meat (and fish) was pretty rare. 

 

N.B.: The above still seems to be in topic, being an offshoot of the OP and the zero-carb diet, an extreme subset of the already extreme keto diet.

[tunt01]

I really don't want to sit and argue w/ lunatics from reddit.com/r/ketoscience.  My only points are:

 

1.  Insulin.  Yes I know Bikman and his near singular view on how metabolism is dictated by insulin/glucagon (or thereabouts).  For 70%+ of the US population that overeats on carbs, his insulin-centric, carb avoiding mentality may have a role.  For those of us already relatively healthy and pursuing 'optimal' health, his near singular focus on insulin isn't enough.  And because Shawn is avoiding carbs, I don't think insulin is 'the way' to measure his health, it's not where his metabolism is being stressed.  He's not being overtaxed with carbs, so why bother focusing on that.

 

2.  HDL vs. Poor Kidney Markers (BUN/Creatinine). I point out his BUN and creatinine aren't that great and look kinda poor.  An explanation is that this is 'normal' in such a high intensity athlete like Dr. Shawn Baker.  OK.  Then why is his HDL so mediocre, if this guy is some kind of world class athlete.  To me, it looks like he's just on a high protein atkins diet.  His HDL is barely acceptable, his kidneys are (mildly) stressed from the protein.  I don't see how his lab values are all that great.  Most of my lipid markers are way better than his, and I had clinical metabolic syndrome at one point.

 

 

3.  False equivalence.  Baker draws a false equivalence when talking about mtor and protein intake.

 

"Most  of  the folks  that  do a lot  of  hand wringing about mTOR,  man,  there's nothing about their performance or physique that I  would want to emulate inthe least. They might outlive me, I don't know. You don't know untl it's all said
and done. I'll take my dirt nap earlier so long as my quality of life is beter alongthe way.

 

Shawn: Yeah.  I  think that's  crucial.  We also know there are some studies that   show strength is ted in to longevity. There are some studies that show that strength shows  increased longevity.  Having muscle mass  is incredibly important.  It's  a metabolic sync. You need that to help with insulin resistance. It's important for longevity. It's important for functon. It's important for quality of life.And I agree, if I live to 90 rather than 93, high quality of functon, I'm going to be
much happier."

 

 

The comparison he seems to be implicitly making is between himself and people like Michael Greger -- these sort of thin, wiry body-type that lack muscle mass.  Well, what Dr. Baker should be doing is comparing his all meat diet, training routine, and body composition  to someone like Jack LaLanne

 

 

who didn't gorge on a pure protein diet, ate tons of vegetables daily, had great body composition and lived to that 93 age that Baker is referring to.  That's the 'standard' if anything.  Again, I think he engages in minimizing the risks or self-indulgent excuse making to justify his dietary habits.

 

 

Aging is not about insulin.  It's about inflammation and daily stress our cells through metabolism, pathogen exposure, environmental stresses and so forth.  Going high protein isn't the right answer to keep your metabolism 'quiet'.

 

 

[Heisok]

tunt01, I agree about Jack LaLanne good point. By-the-way, he was 96.

 

As far as Dr. Bickman, he agrees with your point about the 70%. Problem is, you do not seem to know what his actual recommendation is. Essentially it is lower carbs. Around 50 grams of healthy carbs, 1-2 grams per kilo of protein, and the rest fats. For the 70% metabolically impaired (your number), he indicates to start at the lower end of the protein intake. For those others, somewhere within the 1 to 2 grams per kilo of body weight. 

 

As far as the labwork, you make a lot of valid points. His Alt and AST liver enzymes are also high normal. His HS CRP (inflammation?) is only .6, and C-Reactive protein was 1.1.

 

Who are the lunatics in this thread? If you are referring to me, then I take offense. I do not deserve that. Others can have their own opinion about your comment. Expressing frustration via an anonymous post on the internet can seem harsh at times. Personally, when I am that passionate, I try to think what I would say face to face to the person if I ran into them at the grocery store, post office, a restaurant or maybe church.

 

 

Edited by Heisok, 02 June 2018 - 11:10 PM.

[tunt01]

I agree w/ what you say.  Lunatics I meant as a generalization, not you specifically.  

 

Bikman ignores issues like TLR4 stimulation/inflammation that may occur in saturated fat consumption.  Again, he only cares about insulin and keeping people from metabolically tipping into diabetes/metabolic syndrome.  He doesn't care about longevity, directly.

 

 

[Andey]

Fascinating talk from Robb Wolf

First time I've heard of glucose hysteresis. It makes a lot of sense out of real-world cases and kinda removes the basis from constant arguments about what diet is the most optimal. 

[Nate-2004]

I agree w/ what you say.  Lunatics I meant as a generalization, not you specifically.  

 

Bikman ignores issues like TLR4 stimulation/inflammation that may occur in saturated fat consumption.  Again, he only cares about insulin and keeping people from metabolically tipping into diabetes/metabolic syndrome.  He doesn't care about longevity, directly.

 

How do we know this doesn't occur when carbs are low? 

 

I was actually more interested in the carnitine stimulating ketosis part, because you don't really need red meat for that.

 

Also I agree, if longevity is more the goal, I'd keep protein low to avoid activating acetyl-coa. I also put forward this hypothesis on Reddit the other day. Keeping protein low, while it may not have any effect, as he says, on the ratio of insulin to glucagon, it will interfere with autophagy. In the case of the hypothesis for why it helps with tremor, protein will also mean more glucose for glutamine production.

 

I've still not understood, and he grazes this topic, what the brain uses for its production of glutamine or GABA if not glucose when in ketosis on a low carb diet. If the brain is not running on glucose, how is it creating these glucose derived neurotransmitters that are vital for keeping the autonomic systems going?

Edited by Nate-2004, 17 June 2018 - 01:46 PM.

[Nate-2004]

I answered my last post here with Keto's effect on glutamate handling in the brain: https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2722878/

[tunt01]

How do we know this doesn't occur when carbs are low? 

 

I was actually more interested in the carnitine stimulating ketosis part, because you don't really need red meat for that.

 

Also I agree, if longevity is more the goal, I'd keep protein low to avoid activating acetyl-coa. I also put forward this hypothesis on Reddit the other day. Keeping protein low, while it may not have any effect, as he says, on the ratio of insulin to glucagon, it will interfere with autophagy. In the case of the hypothesis for why it helps with tremor, protein will also mean more glucose for glutamine production.

 

I've still not understood, and he grazes this topic, what the brain uses for its production of glutamine or GABA if not glucose when in ketosis on a low carb diet. If the brain is not running on glucose, how is it creating these glucose derived neurotransmitters that are vital for keeping the autonomic systems going?

 

I think the issue of whether or not inflammation occurs in the context of a HFD or ketogenic state is an evolving matter.  My best understanding is that MUFAs probably achieve the kind of physiological state you are hinting towards.  I think it's why we see MUFA dietary intake, when mixed with SFA, to be ameliorative of oxidative and inflammatory effects.  For example:

 

 

Paraoxonase 1 (PON1) is an esterase closely associated to HDL containing both apolipoprotein A-I and apolipoprotein J (apoA-I and apoJ) and is believed to confer antioxidant properties to HDL (7). In this sense, PON1 has been shown to effectively hydrolyze the oxidized phospholipids present in LDL, thus retarding the oxidation of these lipoproteins and attenuating their pro-inflammatory effects (8–10). LDL oxidation is known to be influenced by diet, altering both LDL susceptibility to oxidation and serum PON1 activity (6,11). Thus, and as far as PON1 response to dietary fat is concerned, the consumption of high-fat (HF), as well as hypercholesterolemic diets, has been associated with a reduction of PON1 activity in both mice and rabbits (9,12). However, and in agreement with the improvement of the antioxidant and anti-inflammatory protection reported to be exerted by oleic acid (13), supplementation and in vitro studies have reported a higher MUFA-related PON1 stability and activity in comparison with PUFA (14–16).

Diets usually consumed in industrialized countries are rich in animal fat and have been associated with an increased incidence of cardiovascular diseases, which seems to be influenced by gender. Given the pro-atherogenic effects described for SFA, as opposed to the beneficial ones conferred to MUFA, together with the protective role of PON1 against atherosclerosis development and its modulation by dietary factors, the aim of this study was to investigate the response of serum PON1 activity and different inflammatory markers to the consumption of a high-fat, hypercaloric diet containing similar amounts of SFA and MUFA on male and female rats.

 

 

 

ThomasMoya, E., & Gianotti, M. (2007). Molecular Medicine, 13(3-4), 1. doi:10.2119/2006-00078.thomas-moya

 

 

I can't speak to glutamine-glutamate, as I'm not read on the matter like you clearly are.  But obviously keeping acetyl-CoA low for the benefits for autophagy is paramount.

[chavoc]

I can only give anecdotal evidence but 5 years ago When I was diagnosed with t2d my a1c was 12.9, ketone sticks turned black and I was about 2 weeks away from a coma according to my doctor. My triglycerides were too high to be calculated by their testing equipment and post prandial blood glucose after a typical fast food meal was over 1000. I was not overweight.

I went strict keto immediately and took no medication. In 2 months my a1c was 5.8, 5.4 in 3 months with triglycerides under 100. Even after going back to a moderate carb diet my post prandials never went above 135.

I sincerely believe keto saved my life. These days I try to stay low carb, 20-60g a day but don't force myself to stick to it if I am seriously craving something. A1c is usually on the high end of normal. The highest it has been is 6.

[Nate-2004]

I can only give anecdotal evidence but 5 years ago When I was diagnosed with t2d my a1c was 12.9, ketone sticks turned black and I was about 2 weeks away from a coma according to my doctor. My triglycerides were too high to be calculated by their testing equipment and post prandial blood glucose after a typical fast food meal was over 1000. I was not overweight.

I went strict keto immediately and took no medication. In 2 months my a1c was 5.8, 5.4 in 3 months with triglycerides under 100. Even after going back to a moderate carb diet my post prandials never went above 135.

I sincerely believe keto saved my life. These days I try to stay low carb, 20-60g a day but don't force myself to stick to it if I am seriously craving something. A1c is usually on the high end of normal. The highest it has been is 6.

 

Ketone sticks are unreliable except probably in your case, they give bad readings based on how much water you've drunk. 

 

Over the past 6 months I've fasted 5 days in a row each month, this week is my 6th and last. After about week 5 my fasted blood glucose finally started dropping to normal levels for the first time in at least a couple years. I am about to do my A1c again in a week or two after this last fast. There is definitely something to all this fasting and keto stuff.

[Juangalt]

This is something which has always made me curious. Ancestors in Africa eating mostly meat? No other foods? No fruits, no nuts, no wild legumes, no tubers, no leaves?

The global ice age? Of which there is no scientific reports to my knowledge? A global temporary ice age because of huge eruptions like the Lake Toba volcano? That's possible but for how long? Reference to archeaological articles? References to papers on quaternary geology, complete with enough climatological markers????

 

Where are these 'historical' reports and what is their degree of credibility? Known history to my knowledge carries no reports of people having to eat only meat, not even the pre-imperial Mongols who ate lots of dairy products together with meat (high protein), maybe just the eskimos.

 

And, as already told, there are no populations enjoying remarkable longevity (blue zones) who ate only meat or practiced a keto diet . On the contrary, their diets where based mainly on carbs, moderate protein and consumption of meat (and fish) was pretty rare. 

 

N.B.: The above still seems to be in topic, being an offshoot of the OP and the zero-carb diet, an extreme subset of the already extreme keto diet.

 

Whether our ancestors ate mostly meat or not is sort of irrelevant. Surely they did eat fruits, nuts and tubers various times during evolutionary history. But from about 1.6 million to 10k years ago, there is ample evidence that meat was often a staple and necessary for survival.

1. Adaptations for persistence hunting (hairless, vertically oriented for minimum sun exposure, shoulders better at throwing than ancestors, fine motor skills, tookmaking, shortened gut, lost cecum, high stomach acidity, general intelligence (doesn't take a rocket surgeon to eat fruit and nuts), Klieber's law.

2. Direct evidence like megafauna smashed femurs for bone marrow via human tools, extinction of megafauna, speartips and arrowheads.

3. The fact that there are several current and historical peoples that subsisted almost entirely on animal products and only through eating exotic foods and/or supplementation can someone be optimally healthy as a vegan.

3. The fact that peoples subsisting on mostly meat have virtually no dental carries, better formed dental arches, are generally larger, stronger and more robust.

4. The fact that meat is a near ubiquitous food source worldwide and plants are much more variable and the plants we can actually digest are scarce and not available in many places. Sure, we do well on fruit and nuts, but go on a backpacking trip and try to live a while on what you find. It's not easy. Other largely herbivorous animals process the cellulose and phytotoxins far better than we do, and convert the fiber to MCT. Humans have no ability to do that.