22 replies to this topic

[Heisok]

Ok, there is a topic above about NR which was started by a Chromadex shareholder (Owner by definition) It is now password protected.

 

My question is who did the password controlled blocking of me, and at least one other member.. Is it the Chromadex stockholder? Did Longecity do it for some other reason?

 

Yes I am a bit angry about it. I get reactionary.

 

I could get on a long diatribe, about some ways which I am disillusioned by some recent product moves by Chromadex in order to artificially raise the price of Nicotinamide Riboside by cutting of some retailers, so that that they can sell their own Tru Niagen brand. Seems like a type of story that the Life Extension foundation, has written extensively about price gouging in the pharmaceutical industry.

 

Anybody remember the Epi Pen? "Mylan has come under fire after news surfaced that the price of its EpiPen, a single-user auto-injector used by more than 3.6 million Americans to treat severe allergic reactions, has increased from about $100 in 2007 to $608 for a two-pack today in 2016. Disgusting!!!! What happened? Well one hospital chain created 2 syringe kits of Epinephrine to distribute to all their locations. Cost maybe $20 dollars.

 

Fast forward: "Generic options captured in the data include Mylan's own EpiPen alternative, at half the price of the original, which the company released in mid-December. Kaleo's AUVI-Q was re-released in mid-February, and CVS recently announced that it will stock Adrenaclick, a $10 EpiPen alternative."

 

It took time, and hurt how many schools which had no choice but to stock the life saving pen!!! How many kids had to be hospitalized when their parents could not afford the pen for home?

 

So, what is happening to Chromadex so far? Elysium has found another source of Nicotinimide Riboside. (By-the-way, they are on my do not do business with list also due to ironically how they strong armed Chromadex by withholding payment.) Also sources of NMN are becoming available at similar prices, but I do not know what the science says about efficacy of NMN. Elysium will not be the only company who can come up with a supplier of Nicotinamide Riboside.

 

Yes Chromadex stock will be fine. They have big distribution plans. Do those plans include YOU as a customer?

 

 

Edited by Heisok, 06 October 2017 - 11:31 PM.

[Michael]

You mean the "NR research reports and discussion" thread? I can't get into it either, and I'm a Moderator, so I'd have to imagine the protection is universal (I'm not aware of any mechanism to put password protection only on specific users). I have no idea what's happened here, but the place to ask about it is over on the Forums issues area. I'd suggest linking the thread so there' s no confusion about what you're talking about, and explaining in your complaint why you think CDXC is behind this (I can't imagine why they would be).

Edited by Michael, 06 October 2017 - 11:46 PM.

[Heisok]

Thanks Michael, I already did via the contact form. . I did not blame it on Chromadex the company. (WHOOPS MY TITLE DOES>)  Go ahead and edit it away, not that you need my consent. Thanks.

 

 

My question I posed is if it was done by the thread starter who is a holder of CDXC stock. (By securities law, an owner.)

 

The other things I wrote about Cromadex the company. What I discuss has been released by Cromadex the company, such as cutting some retailers off due to their pricing being low. I won't bore you more by digging up the information with quotes. I follow that stuff. Company reports, Quarterly releases, Company presentations. Press releases.........

 

In my opinion Nicotinimide Riboside is that important.

 

 

Edited by Heisok, 07 October 2017 - 12:31 AM.

[mrkosh1]

Virtually all the research on nicotinamide riboside has been via Chromodex's product. Unless another version of NR (from example without the added chloride) ended up having an equal amount of research, I'd stick with Chromodex's product regardless what I think about their business practices. I also think it is horrible that they are cutting out third party vendors so they can sell their own brand with a huge price increase. If I were Chromodex, I'd rather lower the price and try to sell it as broadly as possible. I also don't like the fact that they are holding back clinical trial data that is vitally important for everyone who uses their product. To me, this is sickening. 

[stefan_001]

@HEISOK what a bunch of paranoid talk. That thread contained:
- 6 research report with quotes from the reports all posted by ME
- that thread contained 1 topic related comment by the moderator. I will repost his comment in this thread if he wants to re-use that else where
- It contained a comment of the moderator to not have this thread, so I assume he is very happy about the current thread status
- it contained a few comments not related to the topic despite the request in the tittle

YOUR CONTRIBUTION TO THE THREAD WAS A SINGLE WORD: "SEARCH" UNDER A QUOTE OF ANOTHER NON TOPIC RELATED POST

I concluded I will not maintain that subject thread as this board is full of people that see conspiracies, like to criticize without even trying to provide facts. And after reading this nonsense HAPPY I did.

So open your research thread, find the reports and comment them so you can be sure its not a Chromadex ploy. And then have fun debating with the crowd. I will reside to giving ratings.

Final comment if NR is SO IMPORTANT as you write I am sure you can cough up 30 dollars per month. I bet that the internet connection you use to write this paranoid nonsense is already costing you more. As you like to mention I am a shareholder here is what I will do next with my so called fiduciary rights. My next letter to them will be to ask them raise the prices as obviously the value is recognized based on my experience in the forums so time that all these complainers start to pay for it and drop some other luxuries.

Edited by stefan_001, 07 October 2017 - 07:42 AM.

[Benko]

...

Edited by Benko, 07 October 2017 - 02:11 PM.

[Heisok]

Stefan, I rated agree, as I agree with some of what you wrote. The funny thing about the rating process is that in order for members to avoid being sometimes attacking like challenged if they post their thoughts, they chose to rate the posts. I do not blame them, but it's use is abused at times, which is specifically forbidden by Longecity terms of service which we all agree to. I take the terms related to contribution seriously, but I am sure that one time or another, I probably have broken my agreement which I gave to follow the rules. Membership here is a privilege, not a right.

 

I do not claim any contribution to your thread, beyond trying to assist other members who had already taken it off topic by complaining about the search feature, and complaining about Longecity. I have seen other thread starters who have deleted posts, I would have thought you had that capability, but I must be wrong.  I would have been a supporter if you had taken that path. I have done that before by supporting the topic starter when I saw a member complain about some of their posts in a helpful thread being deleted. I would have supported you if you simply locked the thread from new posts, but allowed access. I disagree with editing of posts by others, but leaving parts that can skew what the member intended. Better to delete. Why did you not ask Admin to delete your thread? Looks bad when members think they are being blocked, and perhaps others are getting access.

 

In my opinion.It was wrong for the topic to be blocked, whether or not it started to be diluted, before my comment to attempt to help. As far as my complaints about how Chromadex and Elysium conduct business, do you really want me to mine their own comments from previously released company information? It might take some time.

 

As far as many being able to afford Tru Niagen due to other ways they might spend their money, it is a bad argument in my opinion, if only due to the possibility for some to not be able to afford to spend the money. Perhaps you could avocate for Chromadex to put together a program for those who are not as financially flexible to receive discounted product. Longecity has a process for discounted membership for those who might be less financially flexible, and I respect that. One might argue that that type of program could be abused, but generally I believe that would be a relatively small number. As far as people paying a higher price due to them believing the product is important, the gougers of EpiPen, and other drugs, might have believed the same. Scary, and sad.

 

Good luck.

Edited by Heisok, 07 October 2017 - 04:51 PM.

[bluemoon]

 

As far as many being able to afford Tru Niagen due to other ways they might spend their money, it is a bad argument in my opinion, if only due to the possibility for some to not be able to afford to spend the money. Perhaps you could avocate for Chromadex to put together a program for those who are not as financially flexible to receive discounted product. 

 

Chromadex said in March that it intended to sell Niagen as a "boutique", high price product, which might have made sense then if they could maintain their monopoly status but clearly they haven't as Elysium also sells NR and isn't going anywhere. There will likely be others going Elysium's route, so it is hard to see either Chromadex or Elysium selling at their current prices by next spring. 

 

I think $30 will be possible for a while but wouldn't be surprised to see it drop to $25 and then lower over time.  

[Heisok]

Stefan, I am not judging the negative comments that have been tagged to your post about me. I think they also have valid reasons.

As far as the moderator agreeing with your total blocking of the thread, a stated above, they do not have access to it. You are making an assumption which might or might not be true.

 

If you did not totally block the thread, then I easily could have corrected the post by me. The following quote from the other thread,  is what I recall posting in your blocked thread. Quoting the search portion from the other thread where a discussion of the lack of the ability to search a specific thread. (As an aside, I prefer searching at google as viewing my search terms is easier.)

 

Also a side benefit, if Google still works the same as I recall, every search related to Longecity results in a higher prioritizing of longecity in search results. This leads to longecity being higher in the search results, helping the traffic to the site which is a good thing for the organization which many of us directly support. Guess I think about things I do not need to. Clicking on ads within longecity also could help, but with ads following people simply due to search terms in any of their devices, I do not encourage it. Not a longecity feature, just a problem with advertisers little cookie monsters selling the activity.

 

Me:

 

1.I remember something about hypertrophy in the manipulating mitochondrial dynamics thread.

2. I go to the first page of the thread.

3. I cut the URL address from the browser, which in this case is: http://www.longecity...drial-dynamics/

4. In the Google search, I type hypertrophy site: and then append the address. hypertrophy site:http://www.longecity...drial-dynamics/

5. hypertrophy site:http://www.longecity...drial-dynamics/

6. Search results might say that some results were omitted, but just click repeat with those results.

 

It is a pain, but some topics get huge."

 

 

"For whatever reason the software truncates my search string by making it a hot link. I will show it, but where I instert a parenthesis they should be removed.

 

hypertrophy site:http( : )//www( . )longecity( . )org/forum/topic/94224-manipulating-mitochondrial-dynamics/ "

 

bluemoon in the past you have speculated that Chromadex would cut off all retailers. If that is the actual strategy, what would prevent them from then raising the price of their now monopoly of their product the protected form form of NR which some members here say they are planning to stick to. After all, some other retailers have kept their prices down to pre threat prices, and Chromadex could be keeping their price lower in order to not lose business now until supplies are exhausted. I do not believe they will cut off all retailers,but we shall see if you were right

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Heisok, 07 October 2017 - 06:49 PM.

[bluemoon]

 

bluemoon in the past you have speculated that Chromadex would cut off all retailers. If that is the actual strategy, what would prevent them from then raising the price of their now monopoly of their product the protected form form of NR which some members here say they are planning to stick to. After all, some other retailers have kept their prices down to pre threat prices, and Chromadex could be keeping their price lower in order to not lose business now until supplies are exhausted. I do not believe they will cut off all retailers,but we shall see if you were right

 

This past spring, Chromadex said that they were selling Niagen to 40 vendors and that was "way too many." As a wholesaler, that doesn't make much sense except for a vendor that didn't fit Chromadex's idea of how it should be advertised but that must have been a small number based on what I looked into over time. They also announced that they were going retail in May.

 

This is Frank Jaksch then: "...most of them [vendors] will eventually run out of inventory, but there's also the possibility that you know we may be able to clear it by you know potentially even just taking some of the inventory, taking some of that inventory on our own and just removing it, so that we can clear the path in a more efficient way and we're evaluating several different ways."   

 

Rob Fried then tells a caller that Chromadex is open to keeping a group of retailers supplied with Niagen who "adhere to the concept of selling based off of the science and not the price" as the caller stated. But that would mean keeping many supplied with Niagen just as the CEO said they were clearing the path.

 

Since they are going retail it wouldn't make sense to allow competition to lower the price or dilute their coming focused marketing power. Maybe if a vendor is large like HPN, and it agreed to the same price as Tru Niagen, then possible for the short term but the larger point is that with Elysium staying in as a strong company, Chromadex does not have a monopoly on NR. It is possible that if a duopoly holds then pricing could be similar and higher, but I doubt this, hence the expected price to be under $30.     

Edited by bluemoon, 07 October 2017 - 09:53 PM.

[Ibbz]

 

Since they are going retail it wouldn't make sense to allow competition to lower the price or dilute their coming focused marketing power. Maybe if a vendor is large like HPN, and it agreed to the same price as Tru Niagen, then possible for the short term but the larger point is that with Elysium staying in as a strong company, Chromadex does not have a monopoly on NR. It is possible that if a duopoly holds then pricing could be similar and higher, but I doubt this, hence the expected price to be under $30.     

 

 

The other issue for them is that a company has come up with a way to manufacture large amounts of NMN for a reasonable price, which at least one of their former resellers is now selling. (AlivebyNature)

 

Regardless of peoples opinions on NR vs NMN, there is a large crossover between the two's effectiveness, so Chromadex can try and force the price higher all they want, they'll just end up driving people to the competition.

[bluemoon]

 

 

 

The other issue for them is that a company has come up with a way to manufacture large amounts of NMN for a reasonable price, which at least one of their former resellers is now selling. (AlivebyNature)

 

Regardless of peoples opinions on NR vs NMN, there is a large crossover between the two's effectiveness, so Chromadex can try and force the price higher all they want, they'll just end up driving people to the competition.

 

 

I went to Alive By Nature's site, and they don't have NMN listed as a product. They say they will sell it but haven't indicated a price yet. Revgetics sells NMN but if looking for the NR equivalent at 250 mg a day, it costs $100 per month, which is 4 times what I pay for 250 mg of NR through HPN. Since NR is available, $100 a month for NMN isn't a "reasonable price" for me.

Edited by bluemoon, 08 October 2017 - 10:10 AM.

[Ibbz]

 

 

 

 

I went to Alive By Nature's site, and they don't have NMN listed as a product. They say they will sell it but haven't indicated a price yet. Revgetics sells NMN but if looking for the NR equivalent at 250 mg a day, it costs $100 per month, which is 4 times what I pay for 250 mg of NR through HPN. Since NR is available, $100 a month for NMN isn't a "reasonable price" for me.

 

 

They don't make it the easiest website in the world to navigate, but you can find it here for $47 USD.

 

(60 tablets x 125mg of NMN with 350mg of other precursors)

 

http://alivebynature...es-475-mg-each/

 

So presuming you still want 250mg a day, it's $47 a month. Not ideal, but I expect the price will continue to drop. They did in the past offer discounts on 3+ NR bottles which brought the price down further too, they may end up doing the same for NMN.

Edited by Ibbz, 08 October 2017 - 10:44 AM.

[bluemoon]

 

 

They don't make it the easiest website in the world to navigate, but you can find it here for $47 USD.

 

(60 tablets x 125mg of NMN with 350mg of other precursors)

 

http://alivebynature...es-475-mg-each/

 

So presuming you still want 250mg a day, it's $47 a month. Not ideal, but I expect the price will continue to drop. They did in the past offer discounts on 3+ NR bottles which brought the price down further too, they may end up doing the same for NMN.

 

 

Once it becomes avialable in a few days, assuming their Oct 14th date holds, it will be interesting to see what  Revenetics price will be. Elysium is preparing trials for some compound that isn't NR so NMN is a good guess.  I wonder why anyone would by Revegentics or Alive By Nature's NMN at those prices, though.

[able]

 

 

 

They don't make it the easiest website in the world to navigate, but you can find it here for $47 USD.

 

(60 tablets x 125mg of NMN with 350mg of other precursors)

 

http://alivebynature...es-475-mg-each/

 

So presuming you still want 250mg a day, it's $47 a month. Not ideal, but I expect the price will continue to drop. They did in the past offer discounts on 3+ NR bottles which brought the price down further too, they may end up doing the same for NMN.

 

 

Once it becomes avialable in a few days, assuming their Oct 14th date holds, it will be interesting to see what  Revenetics price will be. Elysium is preparing trials for some compound that isn't NR so NMN is a good guess.  I wonder why anyone would by Revegentics or Alive By Nature's NMN at those prices, though.

 

 

So alivebynature is selling NMN at a slightly higher price than TRU Niagen.    

 

Hopefully Revgenetics can respond and we'll have some real price competition and force Chromadex to keep their prices low.

[Nate-2004]

That competition issue you mention Heisok is rooted mostly in the patent system, something that should have been abolished years ago. It results in the exact opposite of its intended purpose more than 95% of the time and greatly increases the cost of living for all people.

[Heisok]

Good point Nate, there are issues with the system. I am sure you have thought about or discussed all the possible issues?

 

Would the Government have to take up any slack of investment in research and development? (The following part is tongue-in-cheek, not as a troll of you. Maybe the FDA, could underwrite research?)

 

Have you considered how things would work without a patent system? It is a great topic. Feel free here.

 

Any reason not to take NMN and NR at the same time? Maybe quicker acting, and then a peak later with NR?

Edited by Heisok, 09 October 2017 - 12:43 AM.

[bluemoon]

 

 

Any reason not to take NMN and NR at the same time? Maybe quicker acting, and then a peak later with NR?

 

Guarente said in 2014 that a person would take one or the other. That's all I've ever heard about it. That and that NMN is still too expensive for me.  

[Nate-2004]

@Heisok I don't think the patent system solves the problem of investment at all, ever, it just sticks it to the little guy while patent trolls and big firms nip either innovation or low cost of living in the bud with their monopoly. There is plenty of money to be made without monopoly. Plenty of people do it to great success. I think there's a lot of myths woven around patents that benefit mostly the legal cartel. It's all about who grabs the gun first not who actually comes up with a great idea first. 

 

Stephan Kinsella is a patent lawyer who wrote a lot of good stuff on this problem and so has Jeffrey Tucker in his book "It's a Jetson's World".

Edited by Nate-2004, 09 October 2017 - 03:41 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

That competition issue you mention Heisok is rooted mostly in the patent system, something that should have been abolished years ago. It results in the exact opposite of its intended purpose more than 95% of the time and greatly increases the cost of living for all people.

 

 

You can't be any more wrong about that, Nate. Without patents, only big companies would survive. They would simply grab up the work of small companies and individuals and run with it. The patent system has its faults, but it does what it is supposed to do--it gives patent holders a limited monopoly in exchange for public disclosure, and thus fosters innovation. If you want more competition and lower costs, break up the giant corporations.

[Nate-2004]

You can't be any more wrong about that, Nate. Without patents, only big companies would survive.

 

Haha, you say that like that scenario is not currently the case *with* the patent system right now. Big companies are thriving off it. This is why we have a "big pharma".

 

It's true that what you're saying *is* the sales pitch on a patent system, its intended purpose accomplishes the exact opposite goal. 

 

It is not true that only big companies survive without a patent system, they would crater unless they adopt new strategies. The patent system does not foster innovation, it fosters the stifling of innovation. More often than not a patent prevents the pursuit of innovation because you're not allowed to pursue that invention. The patent sits there and nobody but the patent holder can do anything. There are plenty of examples where a thing did not get invented for 20 years because someone was sitting on a patent. Big companies are big because of protectionism (incorporation, subsidies, corporate welfare, special regulations, barriers to entry, licensing) from government on multiple levels, including and especially the patent system. The patent system backfires on every level. Having a monopoly on an idea is absurd to begin with. Monopolies are the problem of so called capitalism (corporate fascism/mercantilism) and they are only ever enabled by the state.

 

I think Stephan details some very good arguments in his book and while I need to re-listen to it to argue these points effectively, they should be addressed.

 

Big companies don't always win when they have to compete, even with the little guys.

Edited by Nate-2004, 09 October 2017 - 04:39 PM.

[Heisok]

Thanks bluemoon, I agree that currently NMN cost is an issue, and NR is readily available.

 

Turnbuckle, since you are around, and you are not afraid of speculating based on Science, others experiences and your own personal trials;  You tested Phosphate sources being added to your Manipulating Mitochondrial Dynamics tests. I will quote below, not to ask for proof, but to show others what the heck I am referring to.

 

Cost aside. Do you think there might be a benefit to adding NMN to an NR routine if it acts quicker than NR?

 

"Going beyond NR

A nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN) trial

NMN is NR with an added phosphate group, and is one step closer to NAD. As oral NR and NMN appear to be broken down before absorption (at least in rats, see Ref-1 below), but are reassembled in cells, it would seem possible to increase cellular NMN production by adding a phosphate source to the N+R protocol (see Ref-2). This could be organic or inorganic. I’ve tried it separately with IP6 and disodium phosphate, which both seem to deliver more than N+R alone, in my (somewhat limited) experience.

NMN is known to raise NAD+ levels in the hippocampus (See Ref-3)."

 

Regarding Intellectual Property and Patents, I have started reading and listening to positions. I am just starting.

 

I have the gyst of the arguments from a couple sides:

 

Stephen Kinsella (1. Libertarian, 2. Contributer to the Mises Institute Austrian School of Economics-Freedom and Peace, and 3. Editor of the  Libertarian Papers)

https://mises.org/pr...tephan-kinsella

 

Neal Solomon CEO of Advanced System Technologies Inc. A prolific inventor of technologies involving semiconductors, communications, data management, imaging, robotics and healthcare, he holds degrees from Reed College and the University of Chicago.

 

"Disintegration Of The American Patent System"  http://www.ipwatchdo...ystem/id=77594/

 

Quote: "While the Supreme Court has reviewed dozens of patent cases since its 2006 term, about 18 cases are prominent. In 15 of these cases, the Court narrowed patent rights. When taken alone, these cases severely cabin patent eligibility, enforcement, validity and remedies. However, when taken together, the sum of these decisions represent a sea change in patent law that dramatically transforms the patent system."

 

Edited by Heisok, 09 October 2017 - 05:28 PM.

[MikeDC]

That competition issue you mention Heisok is rooted mostly in the patent system, something that should have been abolished years ago. It results in the exact opposite of its intended purpose more than 95% of the time and greatly increases the cost of living for all people.

You can't be any more wrong about that, Nate. Without patents, only big companies would survive. They would simply grab up the work of small companies and individuals and run with it. The patent system has its faults, but it does what it is supposed to do--it gives patent holders a limited monopoly in exchange for public disclosure, and thus fosters innovation. If you want more competition and lower costs, break up the giant corporations.

First time agree with your opinion. Patent encourage innovation and limit the ability of one giant corporation ruling the world. Without patent protection companies will not invest in research and clinical trials that can validate the effects of drugs and supplements.

Edited by MikeDC, 26 October 2017 - 11:21 PM.