77 replies to this topic

[Catwoman]

I've been away from the forums for some time, or only just reading up on updates from a few friends.

I tried a lot...but haven't found a permanent solution to my issue. 
I'll give you a summary, maybe someone has some advice.

From 2007-2009 I used Luvox (fluvoxamine) against an intrusive thought (t's always been the same one, it's the word 'death').
In the four years before I tried various alternative and regular therapies, vitamins and herbs. Finally decided to give in to an SSRI. I was very surprised  and happy because it helped tremendously. The unwanted thought went away.

-In 2010 I switched to Lexapro (escitalopram), because Luvox wasn't helping anymore. It got me rid of the annoying thought once again.

-May 2016....suddenly that intrusive thought was back in my head and it didn't leave. I was still on 5mg of Lexapro and decided to increase the dose to 15 mg over a couple of weeks. But it seemed to have stopped working entirely. 

-July 2016: my general doctor advised me to quit medication because he said it wasn't helping anyway. I was send back to a psychologist and started with a mindfulness meditation course. During meditation I couldn't concentrate at all. The unwanted thought only got more frequent.  I did finish the course . My expectations were so high. I followed a Kundalini yoga program for OCD a for about 9 weeks and gave up because after each session I felt so disappointed and depressed.
I keep fighting and resisting the thought. I know that I'm giving this unwanted thought too much attention. But I can't stop that process. 

July - December 2016:
I took various supplements (and wasn't on meds)
Magnesium bis-glycinate, magnesium l-threonate, fish oils, NAC (high dosages), ginko biloba, B-vitamins, multi-vitamins, zinc, D-vitamins....

I didn't notice any difference at all concerning the unwanted thought. 

In January '17 I went to see a pdoc and was put on Zoloft (sertraline).
I went all the way up to 225 mg. And you know what: nothing happened.

Some side effects like tinnitus, teeth grinding and restless legs. No change in the frequency of the unwanted thought. My general doctor wanted me to stay on it. "Give it a few more weeks".  After 8 months I was done with Zoloft. It was nothing like Luvox and Lexapro, which worked miracles. Until they pooped out.

A few months ago I started with Inositol. But the loose stools were so annoying that I didn't buy a new bag of powder. At one point I took three dosages of 5 grams spread over the day, but it just didn't do anything against obsessive thinking, rumination or intrusive thoughts. And I needed the toilet all the time.

Two weeks ago I switched back to Luvox. No side effects at all. I'm at 100 mg now.
I'm so worried that Luvox won't work this time. Like something has been modified in my brain thanks to being on SSRI's for so long. Could it be possible that it won't react to the mechanism of these type medications at all? Or even to supplements which target serotonin?
I've read a lot of articles, but I can't find anything that's clear on this. I could try a bunch of other antidepressants of course, but it takes SO much time.

My best moments: when I'm distracted and/or I really need to focus. My attention is turned outwards. Other people. Things I need or like to do. No time for daydreaming. Other surroundings. Talking long walks in nature. Being with friends, telling stories. I can ignore the unwanted thought better and it goes away for a while. When it comes up in my mind I'm usually pulled to something else so fast that I don't pay any attention to the thought. Working around the house is good. I can go for hours without thinking 'it'. Makes me so happy!

Me being alone...I procrastinate. Easily distracted. Working behind my computer...I want to do 5 things at the same time. Partly I can't concentrate at one task because the intrusive thought is intruding so much.  The first word that comes up in my mind is 'death' when I wake up. Not the concept or any imagery. No anxiety. 

As you can see, my issue seems purely 'between the ears'. I have no physical symptoms, other than mild side effects from antidepressants.  
I need more concentration and I need more of 'I don't care, I can ignore'.
Once I get past the "stupid thought go away" feeling I could possibly start with rewiring my thought processes. 

It's ONE 'overactive' thought and I'm wondering which brain processes are going on. And how to correct these chemically (because on pure will and practice, it doesn't budge).

Thanks for reading!!
 

[sthira]

My expectations were so high. I followed a Kundalini yoga program for OCD a for about 9 weeks and gave up because after each session I felt so disappointed and depressed.
I keep fighting and resisting the thought. I know that I'm giving this unwanted thought too much attention. But I can't stop that process.

Just an idea, forgive me if it's not the one for you, but can you try dropping expectations that you'll ever be freed from the thought?

Give up: dive deeper into the annoyance -- "death." Rather than pushing away, in shame and self-disappointment, pull that thing in closer. Be death. Just this. For me sometimes the pushing away seems to make my the autopilot OCD intrusions (death; "I am not enough"; "There's something wrong with everything") even grander and wider somehow. Do you like Pema Chodrin? Buddhist nun in Nova Scotia : https://youtu.be/2rql2mA5HoA

You mentioned dropping kundalini in disappointment, yet for me one of the gifts of (kundalini) yoga is training the mind to focus. Direct it within, to bodily sensation, who cares what the yoga looks like to outside observers, no one is paying attention anyway, well, except on instagram, but whatever, right, they're not you.

But really needn't be kundalini, or any yoga, whatever interests you -- hiking in the woods, kayaking some rivers, sitting quietly in dark space meditation with your cold turmoil -- anything may be practice.

Death -- slowly redefine the relationship with that one OCD thought that's so disturbing to all of us -- like, oh, you again, death, yeah, ok, I know you, we're acquainted... Ha, anthropomorphizing my OCD thoughts can help

Although I tend toward (philosophical) determinism, so I'm even unclear if I and we have much control over random thoughts popping in. Do you know Sam Harris's work? Dig it: https://youtu.be/pCofmZlC72g

Sorry for ignoring the pharmaceutical end of the equation; maybe you've yet to find the right medication combo? Not dissing, but drugs failed to work for me despite (years of) psychiatrically instructed expectations.

[Catwoman]

 

My expectations were so high. I followed a Kundalini yoga program for OCD a for about 9 weeks and gave up because after each session I felt so disappointed and depressed.
I keep fighting and resisting the thought. I know that I'm giving this unwanted thought too much attention. But I can't stop that process.

Just an idea, forgive me if it's not the one for you, but can you try dropping expectations that you'll ever be freed from the thought?

Give up: dive deeper into the annoyance -- "death." Rather than pushing away, in shame and self-disappointment, pull that thing in closer. Be death. Just this. For me sometimes the pushing away seems to make my the autopilot OCD intrusions (death; "I am not enough"; "There's something wrong with everything") even grander and wider somehow. Do you like Pema Chodrin? Buddhist nun in Nova Scotia :

You mentioned dropping kundalini in disappointment, yet for me one of the gifts of (kundalini) yoga is training the mind to focus. Direct it within, to bodily sensation, who cares what the yoga looks like to outside observers, no one is paying attention anyway, well, except on instagram, but whatever, right, they're not you.

But really needn't be kundalini, or any yoga, whatever interests you -- hiking in the woods, kayaking some rivers, sitting quietly in dark space meditation with your cold turmoil -- anything may be practice.

Death -- slowly redefine the relationship with that one OCD thought that's so disturbing to all of us -- like, oh, you again, death, yeah, ok, I know you, we're acquainted... Ha, anthropomorphizing my OCD thoughts can help

Although I tend toward (philosophical) determinism, so I'm even unclear if I and we have much control over random thoughts popping in. Do you know Sam Harris's work? Dig it:
Sorry for ignoring the pharmaceutical end of the equation; maybe you've yet to find the right medication combo? Not dissing, but drugs failed to work for me despite (years of) psychiatrically instructed expectations.

 

Thanks for replying!

I've been trying something new: massed exposure.
I notice that when I say the word on purpose (in my mind) I don't resist it, because I think the word voluntary. I'm planning to read up on this kind of exposure therapy. The negative automatic response could -in theory- die out with this method. 

The 'problem' with Kundalini yoga is that it takes a lot of time and practise and since I'm leaning towards ADD (attention decifit) I have a hard time with organizing my time and structuring my days. Doing any form of yoga asks for more discipline and that's something I can't handle because of my struggle with time. 
What does work (and what you mention yourself) is hiking in the woods and spending time in a relaxing envirement. I can still have the thought, but there's much for space between two thoughts.

No problem that you're 'ignoring' my pharmaceutical question ;-) 
The difference is that drugs did work for me. That is why it's kind of hard to stop expecting results from the things I have tried. But I'm trying to come to terms with the idea that this thought might never leave me.

Edited by Catwoman, 16 October 2017 - 03:49 PM.

[sthira]

Being outside in the woods and in fields, anywhere with nature, the ocean, wherever is a reliable coping mechanism for me. Trees, trails, random birds, rain or fog, the breeze on my face, oh the poetry I'll spare you, lol, my body calming falling into the ancient walking rhythm. We are nomads, restless inside and out.

I notice that when I say the word on purpose (in my mind) I don't resist it, because I think the word voluntary. I'm planning to read up on this kind of exposure therapy. The negative automatic response could -in theory- die out with this method. .

Yeah, I repeat a word over and over in mind while hiking or in a quiet seated space, any word, might as well be the one you that disturbs us most: death, death, death, deathdeathdeathdeathdeath.. until it loses all meaning? It'll never lose meaning, though, but our relationship with death might change for the better. Isn't this the heart of chanting sutras? Words repeated mindlessly straight on through whatever emotion or bodily sensation you're feeling -- pain, discomfort, sorrow, joy, bliss...these become vehicles for increasing awareness. Hey, we got no instruction manuals with these body machine things we're all inside, and who are keenly sensitive to bullshit, we do what we must do.

...I'm trying to come to terms with the idea that this thought might never leave me.

I think that's a huge step forward, honestly, letting it have its way forever is one way it'll eventually release its grip. But it's also such a paradox. None of us here want to die, ever, we want unlimited lifespans, that's why we're all so busily looking around for something, anything, to slow the damned disease of aging, to repair its damages, we're here on a life extension forum trying to figure out ways to get to the next bridge of escape velocity.

Consider yourself fortunate, maybe, that you're willing to boldly face the thing that scares us most: death. And really I think part of the funding issues that biogerontologists and aging researchers must face is the general public's unwillingness to face the disease of aging head on, courageously, and fund the initiatives aimed at ending suffering and death. Most people just push it away because it's too scary.

Again I'll suggest Pema Chodron's online dharma talks, she's very good at helping us cope while we wait for lifespan extension clinical interventions.

[Mind_Paralysis]

It's time to go for the hard stuff:

 

Memantine, and / or Ziprasidone - possibly Vortioxetine instead.

 

Vortioxetine and Ziprasidone in particular are both 5ht1d-antagonists, which is a receptor connected to OCD-symptoms - some new hypothesis postulate that much like with the down-regulation of other 5ht-receptors for depression and anxiety respectively, the down-regulation of 5ht1d is what makes SSRI's work on OCD.

 

Lexapro, Escitalopram, is a much, MUCH more potent SSRI than others, and is doubtless able to cause much faster down-regulation of this receptor. Tolerance to the effect may be mediated via NMDA-receptors, hence why Memantine may be a good combo with Lexapro (or Luvox/Fluvoxamine).

 

 

Ziprasidone is a more selective and potent 5ht1d-antagonist then Vortioxetine, but it does have multiple other UN-wanted effects, so that's obviously a minus - HOWever... it's the most potent 5ht1d-antagonist available on the market - when combined with Memantine, it could well have good effects on your OCD.

 

 

A case-study of Ziprasidone and OCD:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5044488/

[Adam Karlovsky]

It's just my opinion, but I think SSRIs are terrible drugs. Talk to your doctor about trying a prescription of tranylcypromine. It has a tapering up and adjustment period, but that's something to deal with because tranylcypromine is a powerful drug. It is a third line therapy, but you have tried two different antidepressants already, so you can now take it. If your doctor doesn't want to give you a MAOI because he's paranoid about the risks of MAOIs then find a new doctor.

For supplements, I'd suggest trying the sarcosine and n-acetyl-cysteine combo.

If 8 weeks of tranyl, sarc and NAC do not work, you could look into lamotrigine and memantine.

Important to note, assuming you haven't been medically diagnosed with OCD, you might just have depressive ruminations, which are quite different to OCD.

[Catwoman]

It's time to go for the hard stuff:

 

Memantine, and / or Ziprasidone - possibly Vortioxetine instead.

 

Vortioxetine and Ziprasidone in particular are both 5ht1d-antagonists, which is a receptor connected to OCD-symptoms - some new hypothesis postulate that much like with the down-regulation of other 5ht-receptors for depression and anxiety respectively, the down-regulation of 5ht1d is what makes SSRI's work on OCD.

 

Lexapro, Escitalopram, is a much, MUCH more potent SSRI than others, and is doubtless able to cause much faster down-regulation of this receptor. Tolerance to the effect may be mediated via NMDA-receptors, hence why Memantine may be a good combo with Lexapro (or Luvox/Fluvoxamine).

 

 

Ziprasidone is a more selective and potent 5ht1d-antagonist then Vortioxetine, but it does have multiple other UN-wanted effects, so that's obviously a minus - HOWever... it's the most potent 5ht1d-antagonist available on the market - when combined with Memantine, it could well have good effects on your OCD.

 

 

A case-study of Ziprasidone and OCD:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5044488/

Hey Stink! Thanks for replying!

What I know of Luvox is that it is an agonist for the sigma1 recepter where Zoloft is a (weak) antagonist for the sigma1-receptor. This could be in theory a reason for me not responding to Zoloft. 

The other thing is what you mention about down-regulation. So tolerance to the effect of downregulation could possibly cause a non-response to Zoloft, or any other SSRI?
Could it be permanent?

I've been looking for memantine for a long time, but it's not prescribed for other issues than Alzheimzer's. Even if I could get it off-lable I would cost a lot of money. My insurance doesn't cover it. I haven't found any altenatives to memantine just yet.

Second, ziprasidone (or Geodon) isn't available in my country. I read that it is an atypical antipsychotic. 
Can other atypicals work as well? Like aripiprazole (Abilify)?

Vortioxetine (Brintellix) could be an option. It's available here. I do want to give Luvox a chance though. It did work fantastic in the past. I'm wondering if I should give NAC another try and combine it with Luvox. 

I'm also wondering about supplements like DMAE to help with concentration issues.


 

Edited by Catwoman, 17 October 2017 - 08:25 AM.

[Catwoman]

It's just my opinion, but I think SSRIs are terrible drugs. Talk to your doctor about trying a prescription of tranylcypromine. It has a tapering up and adjustment period, but that's something to deal with because tranylcypromine is a powerful drug. It is a third line therapy, but you have tried two different antidepressants already, so you can now take it. If your doctor doesn't want to give you a MAOI because he's paranoid about the risks of MAOIs then find a new doctor.

For supplements, I'd suggest trying the sarcosine and n-acetyl-cysteine combo.

If 8 weeks of tranyl, sarc and NAC do not work, you could look into lamotrigine and memantine.

Important to note, assuming you haven't been medically diagnosed with OCD, you might just have depressive ruminations, which are quite different to OCD.

Most of the doctors I've spoken to say I have OCD. I like calling it "OCD-spectrum' because it's not the typical Pure O, but it's clearly obsessive in nature. Ruminations are part of it, the depressive symptoms are directly caused by the intrusive thought coming back again and again.

I would have no issues with staying on an SSRI for the rest of my life. If they only kept on working against the stupid intrusive thought....

I think my doctor would rather try me on a TCA first, like Anafranil (clomipramine), before starting any MAOi. There's not much research done on MAOis and OCD, and since I don't have the typical OCD (like obsessive cleaning or fears to hurt other people)....no idea if my new gdoc is open to it.
On the other hand, if I don't react to SSRI's anymore (thanks to tolerance????) then I need to look at other methods of action, instead of medications that inhibit the serotonin reuptake.

I might give NAC another try to go along with Luvox / fluvoxamine. I want to work my way up to 300 mg before switching to another psych med.
Adding sarcosine -don't know much about it- might be something. What does it do when combined with NAC?

Is adding a low dose of lamotrigine to an SSRI an idea? I've think I've read about this combo somewhere.


 

Edited by Catwoman, 17 October 2017 - 08:22 AM.

[Finn]

 

I've been looking for memantine for a long time, but it's not prescribed for other issues than Alzheimzer's. Even if I could get it off-lable I would cost a lot of money. My insurance doesn't cover it. I haven't found any altenatives to memantine just yet.

 

 

 

 

https://www.medicijn...id=100&niveau=2

 

If I understood that correctly, while original Ebixa brand is expensive, generic memantine is dirt cheap, just 5.49 cents per 20 mg pill.

Edited by Finn, 17 October 2017 - 12:32 PM.

[Catwoman]

 

 

I've been looking for memantine for a long time, but it's not prescribed for other issues than Alzheimzer's. Even if I could get it off-lable I would cost a lot of money. My insurance doesn't cover it. I haven't found any altenatives to memantine just yet.

 

 

 

 

https://www.medicijn...id=100&niveau=2

 

If I understood that correctly, while original Ebixa brand is expensive, generic memantine is dirt cheap, just 5.49 cents per 20 mg pill.

 

That's quite cheap indeed. From what I have heard from a psychiatrist working at the research hospital in Amsterdam the price per pill was much higher (about 2 or 3 euros). 
Mabye he was just referring to the original Ebixa....
Of course I still need to convice a doctor to prescribe it and I suspect my general doctor won't....

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

It's time to go for the hard stuff:

 

Memantine, and / or Ziprasidone - possibly Vortioxetine instead.

 

Vortioxetine and Ziprasidone in particular are both 5ht1d-antagonists, which is a receptor connected to OCD-symptoms - some new hypothesis postulate that much like with the down-regulation of other 5ht-receptors for depression and anxiety respectively, the down-regulation of 5ht1d is what makes SSRI's work on OCD.

 

Lexapro, Escitalopram, is a much, MUCH more potent SSRI than others, and is doubtless able to cause much faster down-regulation of this receptor. Tolerance to the effect may be mediated via NMDA-receptors, hence why Memantine may be a good combo with Lexapro (or Luvox/Fluvoxamine).

 

 

Ziprasidone is a more selective and potent 5ht1d-antagonist then Vortioxetine, but it does have multiple other UN-wanted effects, so that's obviously a minus - HOWever... it's the most potent 5ht1d-antagonist available on the market - when combined with Memantine, it could well have good effects on your OCD.

 

 

A case-study of Ziprasidone and OCD:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5044488/

Hey Stink! Thanks for replying!

What I know of Luvox is that it is an agonist for the sigma1 recepter where Zoloft is a (weak) antagonist for the sigma1-receptor. This could be in theory a reason for me not responding to Zoloft. 

The other thing is what you mention about down-regulation. So tolerance to the effect of downregulation could possibly cause a non-response to Zoloft, or any other SSRI?
Could it be permanent?

I've been looking for memantine for a long time, but it's not prescribed for other issues than Alzheimzer's. Even if I could get it off-lable I would cost a lot of money. My insurance doesn't cover it. I haven't found any altenatives to memantine just yet.

Second, ziprasidone (or Geodon) isn't available in my country. I read that it is an atypical antipsychotic. 
Can other atypicals work as well? Like aripiprazole (Abilify)?

Vortioxetine (Brintellix) could be an option. It's available here. I do want to give Luvox a chance though. It did work fantastic in the past. I'm wondering if I should give NAC another try and combine it with Luvox. 

I'm also wondering about supplements like DMAE to help with concentration issues.


 

 

 

Ungh! Resetting circadian rhytm today, so my answer won't be the best - Mirtazapine is doing a number on my brain at the moment.

 

 

No, other atypical antipsychotics won't work as well, since they are not as selective against 5ht1d - hence, they are bound to have worse side-effects. Now, there are other atypical antipsychotics with this affinity, just not as strong - can you find out which atypicals are available in your jurisdiction? We could then have a look at their properties, and see which one has the highest 5ht1d-antagonism - otherwise, just go with Vortioxetine.

 

 

Your difficulties with concentration is interesting - I remember you commenting on one of my posts regarding SCT, and actually noting some similarity to your own issues, did you not? Might be worth looking into, if you truly have something more going on, other than purely OCD. If it turns out you have SCT, then you'll have to start experimenting with noradrenergics - stuff like Reboxetine, for instance.

[Catwoman]

 

No, other atypical antipsychotics won't work as well, since they are not as selective against 5ht1d - hence, they are bound to have worse side-effects. Now, there are other atypical antipsychotics with this affinity, just not as strong - can you find out which atypicals are available in your jurisdiction? We could then have a look at their properties, and see which one has the highest 5ht1d-antagonism - otherwise, just go with Vortioxetine.

 

 

Your difficulties with concentration is interesting - I remember you commenting on one of my posts regarding SCT, and actually noting some similarity to your own issues, did you not? Might be worth looking into, if you truly have something more going on, other than purely OCD. If it turns out you have SCT, then you'll have to start experimenting with noradrenergics - stuff like Reboxetine, for instance.

 

 I'll get back on the concentration issues later.

In The Netherlands the following atypical antipsychotics are available

Haloperidol
Quetiapine
Aripiprazole
Clozapine
Olanzapine
and one or two others which I've never heard of and I don't think they're prescribed either

I have no interest in going on Seroquel :-)
 

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

 

No, other atypical antipsychotics won't work as well, since they are not as selective against 5ht1d - hence, they are bound to have worse side-effects. Now, there are other atypical antipsychotics with this affinity, just not as strong - can you find out which atypicals are available in your jurisdiction? We could then have a look at their properties, and see which one has the highest 5ht1d-antagonism - otherwise, just go with Vortioxetine.

 

 

Your difficulties with concentration is interesting - I remember you commenting on one of my posts regarding SCT, and actually noting some similarity to your own issues, did you not? Might be worth looking into, if you truly have something more going on, other than purely OCD. If it turns out you have SCT, then you'll have to start experimenting with noradrenergics - stuff like Reboxetine, for instance.

 

 I'll get back on the concentration issues later.

In The Netherlands the following atypical antipsychotics are available

Haloperidol
Quetiapine
Aripiprazole
Clozapine
Olanzapine
and one or two others which I've never heard of and I don't think they're prescribed either

I have no interest in going on Seroquel :-)
 

 

 

Hmm! Aripiprazole is actually surprisingly selective for 5ht1d - however, there's a small problem... it doesn't say whether or not it's as an antagonist or agonist - I have a hard time believing that it's agonistic though, but you never know...

 

However, it's hard to say whether or not it'll be helpful... because I found two different conflicting studies:

 

Aripiprazole Augmentation in Patients with Resistant Obsessive Compulsive Disorder: a Pilot Study

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3115673/

 

 

Aripiprazole versus quetiapine in treatment-resistant obsessive–compulsive disorder: a double-blind clinical trial

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4315673/

 

 

The second one actually shows that a drug with LESS affinity for 5ht1d was MORE effective in treating OCD, so I suppose it's not as clear-cut as one would think.

[Catwoman]

And what about adding NAC and sarcosine to Luvox? If I am dealing witn tolerance I need to find something to reverse that. Or work my way around it with other methods of action.

[Catwoman]

 

 

Your difficulties with concentration is interesting - I remember you commenting on one of my posts regarding SCT, and actually noting some similarity to your own issues, did you not? Might be worth looking into, if you truly have something more going on, other than purely OCD. If it turns out you have SCT, then you'll have to start experimenting with noradrenergics - stuff like Reboxetine, for instance.

 

 

The main issue, a side from the obsessive thoughts, is procrastination. 
I also have trouble with structuring my day and keeping track of time. I'm easily distracted when working behind my computer. While typing this I'm also looking at photos someone send me, going through new e-mail, downloading something and running the program at the same time, streaming music, etc.  I usually don't finish the things I've started. Or I'll take the stairs to pick up something and when I'm there I don't know what I wanted to pick up. In the mornings I'm tired, even after 7/8 hours of sleep. I feel depressed when waking up, mainly because of the intrusive thought being there. But also because I just don't feel like getting up and starting my day. 

People with ADD seem to have trouble with social situations. They are quickly overwhelmed, can't concentrate on a conversation, they have problems with blocking sounds, hypersensitive to everything around them and make an absent minded impression on others.
This is totally not me. I'm introvert, but I can manage conversations, I like talking to people when I feel comforable. 

I wish I could get up a bit more easily and feeling focussed and motivated. Every day I have a few intentions, but by the end of the day I didn't do any of these. 

I call myself 'scattered' but combined with intrusive thoughts it's really becoming an issue for me.
I'm hyperfocused or obsessed with this unwanted thought and can't concentrate on my day job. I wish I could set the unwanted thought a side and continue with working instead of feeling so distracted by that thought.

Remarkable is that I've told psychologists and doctors about this, but none of them considered these issues as serious or saw no reason to test me for ADD.
So I have no idea if I really have it.

Edited by Catwoman, 18 October 2017 - 09:17 AM.

[CWF1986]

Concentration, inattention, and focus issues are very frequently caused as a result of depression and/or anxiety.

 

I have adhd pi myself and adderall helped with the above issues a lot.  

 

Later, nortriptyline helped with the above issues some.

 

And you know what?  Lexapro helped with the above issues a lot too!  Simply lifting the depression and clearing the anxiety allowed me to think much more clearly and be able to think and speak on the fly in conversations much more easily.  

 

So my inattention, concentration, and focus problems were not only from my adhd, but from my anxiety and depression too.  

 

ADHD is much less common than depression or anxiety so my bet is that once you get this OCD like issue treated, cognitive imrprovement will follow.  

 

I have a saying, "If you hear hooves, look for horses before zebras".  

[Nate-2004]

I've waited two years to talk about this because I wasn't sure if I'd truly succeeded yet but I had. Neither depression nor anxiety will be solved by a pill alone.

 

You have to attack it from multiple fronts.

 

You might say well I've tried this I've tried that it doesn't work. Well I say have you tried ALL of them at the SAME TIME for 6 months straight? 

 

I was severely depressed for 30 years with terrible self-esteem, no confidence, major social anxiety, multiple visits to institutions, was often suicidal, spent 30 years in therapy off and on, tried literally every pill out there and in the end it took a multi-pronged approach involving a lot of work. It's not easy, if it were easy people would be doing it. However, I guarantee you since I started these things and remained vigilant about them I've not been suicidally depressed in two years now, that's a lifetime record. I've mentioned this in another thread as well. These things aren't optional either, they're a have to. Like having to go to work to make money. It's just stuff some of us unfortunately have to do.

 

I'm talking getting your sleep in a proper circadian rhythm, having good sleep hygiene, exercising absolutely consistently 4x a week every week forever (occasional breaks every few months), meditation, sauna, listing 20 good things about yourself or going on in your life once a day every day non-stop, changing your language (i.e. from "I can't do this" to "how can I improve at this?"), taking properly stored fish oil, intermittent curcumin doses, vitamin D3 (4000 IU every day) w/vitamin K, getting sunshine, getting a massage regularly, going for walks, engaging in creative projects as often as possible, getting involved with improv or some kind of performance art, acknowledging your strengths, accepting your weaknesses and flaws,... ALL these things and more, SIMULTANEOUSLY (I mean, have all these things going on during the week). Don't have time? Make time. You have to. There is no choice if you want out.  Scared and anxious about doing it, terrified? Good, you have to do things that terrify you unfortunately, there is no growth or change inside a comfort zone. The more terrifying things you do the less chronic anxiety you have over time. I still get nervous being on stage, but I am far less nervous than I used to be.

 

Conquering mental health issues doesn't just involve a lifestyle overhaul but a consistent commitment to doing all the multiple things necessary to keep yourself out of depression.  Yes, there are some supplements that help and a diet that helps but it's not just that. It's never any one thing. It's not any one thing with aging, and it's not any one thing with depression.

 

I plan to write a whole article on this one day but for now I'll just link you to the other thread.

 

Here's another video I didn't include in that thread:

 

 

I also have mentioned getting a sleep study done at your local university hospital. I got mine done at Penn. Ensure you don't have sleep apnea. Again, only one single part of the solution.

 

Granted there's a lot more stuff on top of all these things, you have to treat it like juggling, start with one ball, keep that ball going as you add another when you're ready. Eventually you'll figure out how to time manage all these exercises and stuff. I would also say find a life coach but honestly, it's mostly up to you. You're going to have to be absolutely rock-bottom sick of dealing with depression before you find the will and desire to truly take all this on because it takes about 6 months to get the balls going consistently and another 6 months to really turn it into a kind of feedback loop that keeps you going.

 

Also, during all this you're going to backslide, you're going to have down days and down weeks, but think of it like a stock growth chart where over time there is an overall upward trend despite all the dips. It is very important not to give up or conclude it's not working. Everyone gets sad, everyone gets down, it's healthy, that's not the same as depression. Sometimes I still get anxious about certain things that happen. I was just anxious about my friend who hasn't gotten in touch with me, but it's not the same as chronic anxiety. It's a healthy normal anxiety.

Edited by Nate-2004, 20 October 2017 - 03:30 AM.

[Catwoman]

Concentration, inattention, and focus issues are very frequently caused as a result of depression and/or anxiety.

 

 

I think so too. That's why I'm not sure if I actually have ADD. The concentration issues are exacerbated by the intrusive thought. I've always been a daydreamer, very shy as a child and I have dyscalculia.  But socially I'm doing fine. Not that I'm extrovert person, but I'm not feeling foggy when there's a lot going on around me.
More focus and motivation are more than welcome. Once I could get the intrusive thought out of my head (or once I can ignore it) it will lose power. I can imagine my concentration will improve. Motivation is something I could work on.

 

 

You might say well I've tried this I've tried that it doesn't work. Well I say have you tried ALL of them at the SAME TIME for 6 months straight? 

 

I was severely depressed for 30 years with terrible self-esteem, no confidence, major social anxiety, multiple visits to institutions, was often suicidal, spent 30 years in therapy off and on, tried literally every pill out there and in the end it took a multi-pronged approach involving a lot of work. It's not easy, if it were easy people would be doing it. However, I guarantee you since I started these things and remained vigilant about them I've not been suicidally depressed in two years now, that's a lifetime record. I've mentioned this in another thread as well. These things aren't optional either, they're a have to. Like having to go to work to make money. It's just stuff some of us unfortunately have to do.

 

Hi Nate, thanks for your reply!  I have to admit that I've let things slide for the past 10 months.

On the other hand, I'm not depressed. I have no anxiety. I'm not afraid of this intrusive thought and it's not making me panicky. I'm not on edge all day. I'm annoyed though. It's like a 'mental tic'.
I've been suicidal a few times (the last time it was symptom of withdrawal from Lexapro). Social anxiety isn't a problem either; I don't have it.
I'm incredibly used to having this thought in my mind all day. It does bother me A LOT, but I can function. Sad feelings and dark emotions are a direct product from having this ongoing problem. In my view, it ís a problem and I want to get rid of it. It's an obsession. It doesn't go by eating healthy and exercise every day.

I have to agree with you that psychological issues like depression, anxiety and even OCD, can be treated on multiple levels.  I've never wanted to change my life drastically in order to become free of the intrusive though / obsessive thought.  I've always tried to integrate (small) changes in my life, like eating better (less sugar, less fat, less salt), taking some supplements (instead of a whole stack) and work out for 2 days a week (instead of 4 days a week).  They say yoga and meditation is good, but if you're not able to set aside aversion and annoyance than you can meditate all you want. Nothing will happen.These big drastic changes ask a lot of discipline and really, I'm not sure if I can make these changes. I have a business to run, a family to take care of...I want to get out of bed to do yoga, but I just don't do it. Why not? Because I'm tired and sleepy and I don't want to exhaust myself.
I wish I wanted to get out for a run every day, even when it rains and when it's cold (like always, in my country), but I don't want to get out and run in the rain....
So I'm looking for alternatives to get these things done anyway. 

What I'm trying to find is balance. A healthy mind, body and soul and having a normal life with family, friends and a job. Not throwing my word up side down in order to get rid of intrusive thoughts. I don't see where my personality fits in. I can't become some one else, right?

I am scared to try again, but I think I'll take your advice on starting with one ball and then slowly add a few others! Thanks!!

[hydrus]

 

 

 

 

i doubt that the things you describe are more than symptom management not a cure. Depression is often not just a set of learned behaviours or an attitude or an illness resulting from a faulty lifestyle. It can be a real medical illness not something that you have because you are lazy or weak or not living the right life. Not surprising that a person with very low self esteem and lack of self respect would blame themselves for being ill. There are more than enough metabolic alterations known in depression. To suggest that one can simply behave or will them away is ludicrous and patronising.

 

Edited by hydrus, 20 October 2017 - 11:36 AM.

[Nate-2004]

 

 

 

 

 

i doubt that the things you describe are more than symptom management not a cure. Depression is often not just a set of learned behaviours or an attitude or an illness resulting from a faulty lifestyle. It can be a real medical illness not something that you have because you are lazy or weak or not living the right life. Not surprising that a person with very low self esteem and lack of self respect would blame themselves for being ill. There are more than enough metabolic alterations known in depression. To suggest that one can simply behave or will them away is ludicrous and patronising.

 

 

This is a complete and total straw man point you're making. I never argued any of these things at all. No, it's not a cure, neither is a regular pill, a cure would likely involve some serious gene editing because this could be a problem of evolution, we are not adapted to the times, we are adapted to small villages and hunter gatherer societies still. We got lots of social interaction back then, a proper diet, plenty of exercise and sunshine, no artificial lighting and backlit screens. Depression was unlikely a problem.  There are many examples and theories around why certain things are the way we are, why fasting works, why cold shock therapy boosts mitochondrial biogenesis and uncoupling, these things are just more proof that we are still adapted to pre-agricultural times 10,000 years ago... when fasting was associated with winters and times without food.

 

I never said the problem is laziness, or that this is anyone's fault. These kinds of conclusions are what kept me from finally doing all these things. You have to accept that this is the answer for now or you'll be stuck there, depressed and wishing for a cure that just isn't here yet. This is unfortunately how you manage the problem and keep yourself out of depression. You can pretend it's a disease all you want, but in my humble opinion (and in the opinion of many psychologists, evolutionary biologists and anthropologists) it is a mal-adaption to modern civilization.

 

I'm not calling anyone lazy here, I'm just saying what has to be done unfortunately. Accept it or don't, eventually you'll get sick of it and give in, or end it all (don't end it all).

Edited by Nate-2004, 20 October 2017 - 02:02 PM.

[Nate-2004]

I wish I wanted to get out for a run every day, even when it rains and when it's cold (like always, in my country), but I don't want to get out and run in the rain....

So I'm looking for alternatives to get these things done anyway. 

What I'm trying to find is balance. A healthy mind, body and soul and having a normal life with family, friends and a job. Not throwing my word up side down in order to get rid of intrusive thoughts. I don't see where my personality fits in. I can't become some one else, right?

I am scared to try again, but I think I'll take your advice on starting with one ball and then slowly add a few others! Thanks!!

These big drastic changes ask a lot of discipline and really, I'm not sure if I can make these changes. I have a business to run, a family to take care of...I want to get out of bed to do yoga, but I just don't do it. Why not? Because I'm tired and sleepy and I don't want to exhaust myself.

 

 

You can do this. As paradoxical as it sounds, you will have far more energy and strangely, more time when you add these things. You'll get more quality sleep in 7 hours than you've gotten your whole life. I combine a lot of these things into the same exercise. I meditate and list 20 things while sitting in the sauna or while on the treadmill or running or on the elliptical.  You'll get it. You just have to really really want to be done with it all before your emotions drive your determination into making it happen and unfortunately there is no simpler way to do it currently. Maybe in the future, but not now. Trust me, everyone wants the easier magic pill but until enough people participate in genetic study of this depression/anxiety/mental-illness phenomenon in modern civilization we won't have our cure. 23 and Me is doing a study right now.  We are maladapted to all this modern suburban soccer mom/dad protestant work ethic nonsense.

Edited by Nate-2004, 20 October 2017 - 01:55 PM.

[hydrus]

 

 

 

 

 

 

i doubt that the things you describe are more than symptom management not a cure. Depression is often not just a set of learned behaviours or an attitude or an illness resulting from a faulty lifestyle. It can be a real medical illness not something that you have because you are lazy or weak or not living the right life. Not surprising that a person with very low self esteem and lack of self respect would blame themselves for being ill. There are more than enough metabolic alterations known in depression. To suggest that one can simply behave or will them away is ludicrous and patronising.

 

 

This is a complete and total straw man point you're making. I never argued any of these things at all. No, it's not a cure, neither is a regular pill, a cure would likely involve some serious gene editing because this could be a problem of evolution, we are not adapted to the times, we are adapted to small villages and hunter gatherer societies still. We got lots of social interaction back then, a proper diet, plenty of exercise and sunshine, no artificial lighting and backlit screens. Depression was unlikely a problem.  There are many examples and theories around why certain things are the way we are, why fasting works, why cold shock therapy boosts mitochondrial biogenesis and uncoupling, these things are just more proof that we are still adapted to pre-agricultural times 10,000 years ago... when fasting was associated with winters and times without food.

 

I never said the problem is laziness, or that this is anyone's fault. These kinds of conclusions are what kept me from finally doing all these things. You have to accept that this is the answer for now or you'll be stuck there, depressed and wishing for a cure that just isn't here yet. This is unfortunately how you manage the problem and keep yourself out of depression. You can pretend it's a disease all you want, but in my humble opinion (and in the opinion of many psychologists, evolutionary biologists and anthropologists) it is a mal-adaption to modern civilization.

 

I'm not calling anyone lazy here, I'm just saying what has to be done unfortunately. Accept it or don't, eventually you'll get sick of it and give in, or end it all (don't end it all).

 

 

in my experience psychologists are some of the most ignorant people when it comes to depression so I could care less what evolutionary psychologists and behavioural psychologists say.

 

Depression is not an illness it is a symptom of medical illness not always but often.

 

I have tried all the things they describe and while they kept me from descending into severe depression and somewhat functional I was never well. They are great and helpful but for many they never address to real causes so you keep suffering just less than before.

 

Exercise is one of the most powerful natural antidepressants that there is but it does not address the causes in my experience.

 

Superficially it helps and if you have suffered for years you might believe you are 'well'. I know some people doing it that way and love to show how 'positive' they are. You still see how they get depressed on the inside while convincing themselves and others that this is not the case.

 

From time to time they have a breakdown and the depression that was under surface starts to show. Telling someone with a medical problem that they are causing it with their personality is beyond cruel IMO. Biological denialism of depression has caused untold suffering and stigma already. 

 

There is more than enough evidence for metabolic imbalances so anyone claiming in 2017 this is purely behavioural is a bit late but I guess these claims never die.

 

I understand the guilt tripping psychology behind this well and I fell for it too and I know many others falling for it.  It works so well if you are depressed and insecure as a result and feel like worthless shit.

 

Depression makes you always feel weak and lazy compared to others so it is easy to accept an expert telling you to man up, that you are causing you to be ill etc. Depressed people love to be told they are worthless shit because it aligns with their self-image.

 

Therapies that really work don't need blame the sufferer if they do not work.

Edited by hydrus, 20 October 2017 - 03:29 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

I am in almost complete agreement with Hydrus - Social Science attempts at treating mental/neurological issues have reaped tremendous losses through the years - everything from Schizophrenia to Autism have been incorrectly treated with social sciences psychology methods.

 

I could post quite a bit regarding the history and the science of various treatments for the issues at hand, but I'm honestly too tired to get into it - it'll have to be sufficient to say that I'm more of a proponent of biology than anything else.

 

I'm somewhat more positive in my views regarding evolutionary psychologists though, mainly because they seem to differentiate to some extent from classical psychologists (whom are often less than enthused about the hypothesises being put forth), and seem to offer some reasonable ideas as to why depression, for instance, has been getting worse, the more advanced society has become - the field is still in its infancy though, so there are many, very heavy criticisms of the field - problems with testability of course being the biggest one...

[sthira]

I love this discussion, thank you, it's refreshing to hear, and I like that we approach it NON ARGUMENTATIVELY. I think everyone here is mostly correct, and as we well know, we who have had crippling suicidal depression for years have heard it all -- all that therapy, sometimes helpful, sometimes not, it's always temporary. And the drugs. Have you investigated the fraudulent science behind the efficacy of these drug cocktails? And a healthy diet -- of course we do that. And exercise -- I'm a very fit professional performer, too, my body's health is my livelihood, so of course I'm watching it like a hawk.

But this comment, I feel is most accurate in my humble opinion of fighting depression for decades:

...Depression is often not just a set of learned behaviours or an attitude or an illness resulting from a faulty lifestyle. It can be a real medical illness not something that you have because you are lazy or weak or not living the right life. Not surprising that a person with very low self esteem and lack of self respect would blame themselves for being ill. There are more than enough metabolic alterations known in depression. To suggest that one can simply behave or will them away is ludicrous and patronising.

I'm not saying you implied this, Nate, I love your insights and writing. But very often for people like us with clinical depression trying to juggle all these healthy lifestyle behaviors, daily, for decades, when they don't really work -- they do manage the despair, but they don't work as a cure. The cure is in the clinic. The cure isn't here. You've I'm sure heard that depression is a disease, and if I had a different type of disease less socially stigmatized, say, arthritis or diabetes or a broken leg, well, the entire tone of the discussion is totally different. If I snap my knee in half, for example, then there are things I now cannot do anymore because there is no cure for returning snapped knees to baseline health. Depression is like that: no amount of healthy lifestyle juggling works to cure clinically diagnosed major depression. If behavior and the current drug model worked, I'd be happy and cured.

Nice discussion, I've not expressed myself as well as I'm able, I'm tired of being depressed, I'm tired of hunting down cures, but let's please keep discussion sweet and kind and gentle and nice. Some of us, many, many, many of us, in fact, are down deep in it, and teetering on the edge.

Support ketamine research. It seems to have great promise.

[Nate-2004]

 

 

 

 

in my experience psychologists are some of the most ignorant people when it comes to depression so I could care less what evolutionary psychologists and behavioural psychologists say.

 

Depression is not an illness it is a symptom of medical illness not always but often.

 

I have tried all the things they describe and while they kept me from descending into severe depression and somewhat functional I was never well. They are great and helpful but for many they never address to real causes so you keep suffering just less than before.

 

Exercise is one of the most powerful natural antidepressants that there is but it does not address the causes in my experience.

 

Superficially it helps and if you have suffered for years you might believe you are 'well'. I know some people doing it that way and love to show how 'positive' they are. You still see how they get depressed on the inside while convincing themselves and others that this is not the case.

 

From time to time they have a breakdown and the depression that was under surface starts to show. Telling someone with a medical problem that they are causing it with their personality is beyond cruel IMO. Biological denialism of depression has caused untold suffering and stigma already. 

 

There is more than enough evidence for metabolic imbalances so anyone claiming in 2017 this is purely behavioural is a bit late but I guess these claims never die.

 

I understand the guilt tripping psychology behind this well and I fell for it too and I know many others falling for it.  It works so well if you are depressed and insecure as a result and feel like worthless shit.

 

Depression makes you always feel weak and lazy compared to others so it is easy to accept an expert telling you to man up, that you are causing you to be ill etc. Depressed people love to be told they are worthless shit because it aligns with their self-image.

 

Therapies that really work don't need blame the sufferer if they do not work.

 

 

I agree most psychologists are quite ignorant but my depression didn't just go away magically. Lifestyle =/= personality. It's not your fault that depression happens and I never said that. It's evolution's fault or more accurately speaking, it's modern civilization and progress out pacing our biology's fault. There is, as I said, no one single therapy, it requires a holistic approach involving multiple angles of attack to keep yourself above water so to speak.

 

Side note: One other thing I forgot to mention is that you can't expect it to work if you have toxic people around you all the time, toxic parents or negative friends or otherwise, people holding you down or people who try to discourage you from what your efforts.

[Nate-2004]

I love this discussion, thank you, it's refreshing to hear, and I like that we approach it NON ARGUMENTATIVELY. I think everyone here is mostly correct, and as we well know, we who have had crippling suicidal depression for years have heard it all -- all that therapy, sometimes helpful, sometimes not, it's always temporary. And the drugs. Have you investigated the fraudulent science behind the efficacy of these drug cocktails? And a healthy diet -- of course we do that. And exercise -- I'm a very fit professional performer, too, my body's health is my livelihood, so of course I'm watching it like a hawk.

But this comment, I feel is most accurate in my humble opinion of fighting depression for decades:
 

...Depression is often not just a set of learned behaviours or an attitude or an illness resulting from a faulty lifestyle. It can be a real medical illness not something that you have because you are lazy or weak or not living the right life. Not surprising that a person with very low self esteem and lack of self respect would blame themselves for being ill. There are more than enough metabolic alterations known in depression. To suggest that one can simply behave or will them away is ludicrous and patronising.

I'm not saying you implied this, Nate, I love your insights and writing. But very often for people like us with clinical depression trying to juggle all these healthy lifestyle behaviors, daily, for decades, when they don't really work -- they do manage the despair, but they don't work as a cure. The cure is in the clinic. The cure isn't here. You've I'm sure heard that depression is a disease, and if I had a different type of disease less socially stigmatized, say, arthritis or diabetes or a broken leg, well, the entire tone of the discussion is totally different. If I snap my knee in half, for example, then there are things I now cannot do anymore because there is no cure for returning snapped knees to baseline health. Depression is like that: no amount of healthy lifestyle juggling works to cure clinically diagnosed major depression. If behavior and the current drug model worked, I'd be happy and cured.

Nice discussion, I've not expressed myself as well as I'm able, I'm tired of being depressed, I'm tired of hunting down cures, but let's please keep discussion sweet and kind and gentle and nice. Some of us, many, many, many of us, in fact, are down deep in it, and teetering on the edge.

Support ketamine research. It seems to have great promise.

 

 

I realize that my experience is anecdotal, but for years I tried so many things and none of them worked, especially pharmaceutical drugs like SSRI's, SNRI's, NDRI's, etc. They also caused terrible side effects. What did work was doing everything but those drugs at the same time for months. It was a tremendous effort and I had a life coach, group therapy AND improv classes, friends and creative activities in addition to all the exercise, meditation, supplements like fish oil and d3 on top of all the positive self-talk. All that at the same time for more than 2 years has kept depression at bay. It works. Trust me. Yes, relative to modern civilization it can be seen as a workaround to mimic the things humans were doing in hunter gatherer times, but it does work. You can't just decide that because after 30 years it worked for me, that suddenly I no longer have clinical depression and that I never had it. No, I fucking had clinical depression, I can show you the multitude of diagnosis' over the past 30 years of countless psychologists, psychiatrists and therapists in my wake. I know it's considered a disease, just like type 2 diabetes is a disease, just like obesity is an epidemic, and yes, it is poorly understood.

 

This is another reason why I just don't wanna bother writing an article or book about this is because nobody is going to believe me. Nobody wants to do this. Nobody wants to do what it takes to conquer it and all my depressed friends in my life are not doing these things. I know they aren't, I hang out with them all the time. They don't do these things ever. They eat terribly, they sleep terribly, they never exercise, they stay inside all day, they constantly say horrible things about themselves, they stay in a relationship with their incredibly toxic parents and they do basically everything in that video I posted above.

 

I got sick of being depressed, I decided to do all the things. Maybe somehow my personality is ideal for this, or somehow I have some sort of built in aptitude for making it all happen, but maybe I don't. Maybe, just maybe I'm right about depression. It certainly feels like I'm right because I haven't been depressed in 2 years. I've been sad, yes, I've been angry, happy and scared. Not chronically depressed or anxious like I used to be. I'm no longer socially awkward. Anyone I meet, any new friends I make, they all think "oh you can't possibly understand depression or anxiety because I've never seen it", yeah, they didn't know me then. I have three friends who've known me longer than 9 years and they see me and know that I'm right. They know I'm different now. They know what I'm doing. They know it worked. They still don't want to do it. They see what works and they still don't want to do it.

 

I'm not saying they're lazy, that's harsh and super inaccurate, I'm not calling it a personality problem, that's harsh and so not true.  They've grown up in an agrarian society, in a compulsory, prussian style schooling system with authoritarian, helicopter teachers and parents in a society with a long history of a calvinist/protestant work culture. They're all distracted by constant images and messages in the media/social media to compare themselves to the impossible standards that society is setting for them so they are bound to fail. Technology surrounds them, distracting them with slot machine style addictions and plenty of booze, streaming videos and drugs to manage the emotions that society condemns them for having. I don't blame them for being depressed. I don't blame them for being anxious. It's not their fault....

 

But it is their problem. I'm offering a daunting way to manage the problem, but it is all we have right now. These pharmaceuticals are just profiting off of it all and exploiting these people and these drugs are often making things worse, not better.

 

And part of that culture I'm talking about... language is imbedded in that culture and language plays a huge role in depression and anxiety in terms of cognitive behavioral theory. We have to change our language and the way we think of things like I mentioned earlier. We're surrounded by authoritarian bullies who keep us down with language, we have our parents and these other authorities embedded in our brains, saying these things. You have to turn that around, change the language.  I also did affirmations for a while and I knew those didn't work and there's been studies showing they didn't work, and language is the reason why they don't work. We have deep seated beliefs about ourselves, unconscious beliefs, that get in the way of that working. So I changed the language. I used progressive tense language instead. Instead of saying "I am confident", I said "I am becoming more confident". Something I could believe... or at least something my brain had a lot of trouble arguing against or disproving. The language in society is born out of a racist, sexist, authoritarian, protestant culture bent on oppression and exploitation. People have been complaining about all the things you can't say anymore and raving on about having to be PC, but really, it's something that has to happen unfortunately. Language is central core to our very being, our very sentience perhaps even. How can it not be relevant when talking about depression or anxiety?

Edited by Nate-2004, 20 October 2017 - 06:09 PM.

[hydrus]

I realize that my experience is anecdotal, but for years I tried so many things and none of them worked, especially pharmaceutical drugs like SSRI's, SNRI's, NDRI's, etc. They also caused terrible side effects. What did work was doing everything but those drugs at the same time for months. It was a tremendous effort and I had a life coach, group therapy AND improv classes, friends and creative activities in addition to all the exercise, meditation, supplements like fish oil and d3 on top of all the positive self-talk. All that at the same time for more than 2 years has kept depression at bay. It works. Trust me. Yes, relative to modern civilization it can be seen as a workaround to mimic the things humans were doing in hunter gatherer times, but it does work. You can't just decide that because after 30 years it worked for me, that suddenly I no longer have clinical depression and that I never had it. No, I fucking had clinical depression, I can show you the multitude of diagnosis' over the past 30 years of countless psychologists, psychiatrists and therapists in my wake. I know it's considered a disease, just like type 2 diabetes is a disease, just like obesity is an epidemic, and yes, it is poorly understood.

 

 

I don't disagree with your experience. If it works for you you are right. I hope it continues to work for you. I am just skeptical about generalizing because my experience was the opposite of this.

 

I don't think drugs are always the answer and I do know that for some people drugs don't work well. I am absolutely skeptical about the current state of psychiatry and pharmaceutical business but as a matter of fact many people can live normal lives thanks to these chemical treatments.

 

I don't think we can say this is because ADs are happy pills they are not and they still can make severely depressed people experience normal emotions.

 

These days we see a lot bashing of the chemical imbalance theory but in my opinion it is still better than most ideas out there. 

It's not perfect but it is more scientific than any psycholological theory.

 

Early ADs were not developed by the pharmaceutical industry so we can't say it is just a big pharma hoax.

 

I don't think it works for everyone but there are probably many different biological alterations that can lead to depression.

 

Positive thinking and these cognitive treatments are too simplistic IMO. They just divide the world in good and bad people the ones that think the right thoughts and the others that don't. These theories can't offer a credible explanation on why formerly very functional and happy people kill themselves despite leading perfect lives. 

 

Also I don't see how we can explain post-partum depression with cognitive models, why is post marriage or post first job depression much less common and not known in medicine?

 

My impression is that people who write about depression being caused by negative thoughts usually never experienced depression, they observe the illness from the outside and might see an insecure, self-centered, unhappy and isolated creature they do not see the severe mental pain and impairment that lies behind it. 

 

My personal experience(so far, you never stop learning)  also taught me the value of a biologic model. I did in fact try many lifestyle changes and I did exercise several times a week. The exercise did help and changing my life seemed to work for a few months and then I would relapse into depression and negative thoughts for no good reason. With each relapse I becamesicker and things looked more hopeless. I thought that improving my social life would make me happy. Eventually I was seeing friends on most days of the week, was partying, exercising should have had a wonderful life but inside I felt more dead and hopeless than ever.

 

The first thing that really gave me some relief was St. Johns Wort. It was not very effective but for the first time in years it gave my mind and my body a pleasant feeling that wasn't there before. That was when I started viewing depression as metabolic problem instead of a psychological.

 

Drugs or supplements can help me to experience normal feelings, exercise made me tougher and more resilient emotionally but it never allowed me to feel. Exposure to sunlight works better in that regard but if that were the cause one vacation would cure me. 

 

I do now believe that Depression causes behavioural problems, abnormal thinking and social problems the opposite of what society believes. When I am not depressed I think positive thoughts automatically, no effort needed and when I am depressed I can try as hard as I want and I still have abnormal thoughts.

 

I don't buy into the idea that i have not learned how to think. Before I became depressed I was thinking normally I don't believe we can forget how to think properly and need to put in massive effort to re-learn it again with many people failing at it.

 

Sure my life was not perfect even before I became depressed but nothing has been as traumatic and stressful as this illness, in fact I would say my life was a walk in the park compared to this illness.

 

You see a lot of health freaks on youtube that have  a perfect diet and are very active but still need to resort to SSRIs to control their moods.

 

One thing that I noticed is that among my friends the people who do not experience psychological problems do not care that much about exercising and health probably they feel great regardless how unhealthy their lifestyle it. They don't need exercise to feel good. The ones that exercise are often the ones that do so in order to be able to cope with nervous stress and tension and other mood issues or body image problems.

 

That is not to say that a healthy lifestyle does not help, for me it is vital but on it's own it is not enough for me.

 

I don't believe that depression is one thing there are probably different depressive illnesses and causes and I don't want to discount a psychological model entirely. Some people report that it works well for them. I do not know how that works but they must know best.

 

For me psychological approaches it never did much and I believe harmed me, made me hating myself for not being able to function.

Edited by hydrus, 20 October 2017 - 08:20 PM.

[sthira]

Thanks, Nate. That's informative and interesting, and it sounds like we've travelled down some same sad roads. I'm happy about anyone who can solve the internal personal riddle of clinical depression -- it's a nasty disease -- so congratulations on finding things that work for you! I'll keep turning the screws on a healthier and healthier lifestyle, but honestly I'm not sure what else I can do. I already feel like I'm walking on a tightrope. But at least I'm not following colleagues, several of whom meet the sad joke of my biz's four food groups -- diet coke, cigarettes, coffee, painkillers.

This is my impression, too:

My impression is that people who write about depression being caused by negative thoughts usually never experienced depression, they observe the illness from the outside and might see an insecure, self-centered, unhappy and isolated creature they do not see the severe mental pain and impairment that lies behind it.

Edited by sthira, 20 October 2017 - 08:33 PM.

[RWhigham]

 

 

an intrusive thought (t's always been the same one, it's the word 'death').

Possibly you subconsciously want someone dead.  If someone was abusive to you, and your only escape was from them dying, then it's natural to wish them dead (as long as you don't act on it). If you make such a connection, you may be able to move on and quit thinking about death. 

 

The subconscious includes early memories stored in the primitive part of the brain, things we cannot easily recall. For example. a person I know could not stand to have their belly button touched. This was caused by subconscious memories of a belly button that wouldn't heal after birth. Once the person understood the reason, their hypersensitivity went away.  

Edited by RWhigham, 20 October 2017 - 08:29 PM.

[Catwoman]

 

 

 

For me psychological approaches it never did much and I believe harmed me, made me hating myself for not being able to function.

 

Exactly this! 
I don't think the help from psychologists and psycho-therapists harmed me, but reading all the (self help) books about mindfulness, Acceptance & Commitment Therapy, Buddhist teachings... What they say is all so true, so easy once you "get it". And actually, it's not something you get. It's something you do....Allowing thoughts to come and go without struggling. Observe your thoughts without judging, you don't need to do anything with these thoughts. Be aware of the here and now. Aware of the breath, mindful eating,  meditate without setting a goal for yourself.

Stop resisting. Let the thought be in your mind without paying attention to it. 
I hate myself for not "getting" this.  What if you can't stop? These psychological approaches make me feel bad....

Edited by Catwoman, 20 October 2017 - 09:04 PM.