12 replies to this topic

[ron45]

`Been a while since I last posted. I hope I'm in the right area for my question.

 

There is a lot of talk on the internet re getting the most out of turmeric and it's main ingredient Curcumin. 

 

I've seen suspicious figures on how much piperine may increase the bio availability of the curcumin in turmeric. I'd love for them to be based in reliable more in fact than profit.

 

So we have a fat soluable powder that also needs black pepper and or piperine to get a better blood level of curcumin.

 

 I have not found any info on how much piperine  or black pepper is needed to get a handle on inflammation.

 

Has anyone seen any info on a ratio  that will bring about better absorption? I'm more interested in DIY that commercial products. But, there may be one with those numbers listed on the label.... should a thought of that. I'd be happy with a url to something a product of site with the right info.

 

Ron 

[Adaptogen]

Published research shows around 15mg piperine results in a 2000% increase in curcumin bioavailability. 1/4 tsp black pepper contains around 15-35 mg piperine, so more than enough. 

[ron45]

Published research shows around 15mg piperine results in a 2000% increase in curcumin bioavailability. 1/4 tsp black pepper contains around 15-35 mg piperine, so more than enough. 

You know, when I saw that 2k% figure a while back I figured it was an exaggeration. If you remember where you saw that I'd love to take a look at the research paper. It's perfectly OK if you don't remember. The 15 mg number is worth the price of admission so thanks for your time. Thanks very much Adaptogen.

 

Ron

[Adaptogen]

No problem, source here: Influence of piperine on the pharmacokinetics of curcumin in animals and human volunteers.

[joelcairo]

That was a very early study (1998), and frankly it is not believable.

 

Piperine makes up somewhere around 5% of black pepper, and the idea that the equivalent of maybe one peppercorn can shut down a major enzyme and increase absorption of curcumin by 20X is impossible to accept. I think the result is due to barely detectable levels of curcumin absorption in the non-piperine group, leading to a high error factor. There may have also been advances in measuring techniques or what curcuminoids & metabolites need to be tested for.

 

<added>

Here's a later study showing that a certain curcumin-lecithin-piperine formulation leads to about 10% increased absorption over plain curcumin. Unfortunately if this is a commercial product it is not named, and if not then the study includes no details provided about how it was formulated. But intuitively an increase of overall bioactivity of 10%-20% seems a lot more plausible to me than 2,000%.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2792534/

Edited by joelcairo, 05 November 2017 - 06:02 AM.

[Adaptogen]

I think it's been demonstrated pretty clearly that piperine notably increases the bioavailability of a number of drugs at dosages within that range. Coq10, propanolol, egcg, all see Cmax increases anywhere from 50-200% and these substances don't have the significant bioavailability issues that isolated curcumin has.  And there is plenty of evidence that piperine potentiates a number of curcumin's effects (neuroprotective, hypocholesterolemic, etc).

It is not that hard for me to believe that 20mg piperine could increase the absorption of isolated curcumin that much if the bioavailability is that bad to begin with. And it's also possible that the 2000% is an overestimate, I would not be that surprised to see it be closer to 100-200% increase, but it's the only pharmacokinetic comparison of curcumin vs curcumin-piperine I could find. Either way, no real reason not to take a pinch of black pepper with your turmeric, getting the combined bioavailability increase from both the turmeric essential oils and the piperine.

[joelcairo]

I could accept something on the order of a 100% increase (although it should be noted that a typical curcumin-piperine capsule contains only about 5 mg of piperine rather than 20).

 

Not to belabor the point, but if something as commonplace as black pepper could increase curcumin absorption by twenty times, then its effects on other nutrients and drugs and toxins would be critically important and well known.

[ron45]

This is a pretty strong point. So I hope someone can shed more light on the topic.

 

Ron

[Oakman]

Although piperine appears to be a wonder enhancer of bioavailability of supplements, caution is advised as it changes liver's chemistry that can result in negative effects. Other mechanisms to increase curcumin's effects are isolated to curcumin alone, and so may be a better avenue for regular administration.

 

http://nutrientjourn...ant-properties/

 

"Piperin has been shown to inhibit both human drug-metabolizing enzymes P-glycoprotein and CYP3A4 (possibly others too)[8] which may lead to grapefruit-like effect. Inhibition of these enzymes decreases their ability to break down drugs which in turn increases drug blood levels and which causes worse side effects etc. Therefore, black pepper should not be consumed in combination with any drugs. For example, it was shown that a single administration of 1 g of black pepper more than doubled area under the plasma concentration-time curve and elimination half-life of phenytoin [9].

Piperine can be toxic for the central nervous and reproductive systems at high concentrations [11]."

[Adaptogen]

Enhanced absorption and pharmacokinetics of fresh turmeric (Curcuma Longa L) derived curcuminoids in comparison with the standard curcumin from dried rhizomes

"Thus, the relative absorption of curcuminoids from 1000 mg FTC (turmeric juice powder) was found to be about 46-fold higher, as compared to the absorption from DTC (95% curcumin extract) containing an equivalent dose of curcuminoid"

So based on this, you can get 46x absorption with just using turmeric powder, or fresh turmeric as opposed to a curcumin extract. There is also likely something to turmeric's traditional consumption as haldi doodh (golden milk). Curcumin binds to casein micelles which enhances bioavailability, and this may not be so different from phytosomal-type formulations of curcumin like Meriva or Longvida. Heating of milk alters the binding of curcumin to casein micelles. A fluorescence spectroscopy study.
 

A traditional recipe for turmeric milk (from Times of India):

"1. Take an inch-long stick of turmeric. Remember that turmeric powder is never as effective as crushed turmeric sticks, because the chances of contamination in the powder are high, plus its efficacy is also bound to reduce during the heat-generating grinding process. So, take a stick of turmeric (the variety used in cooking; varali manjal in Thamizh) and crush it coarsely using a mortar and pestle.
2. Crush a few peppercorns too. The white variety is better.
3. Mix a cup of water with a cup of milk, add the crushed turmeric and pepper and bring to a boil.
4. Simmer for 20 minutes. By this time, the milk will reduce to a cup. This is the reason why I suggest you begin with a mixture of milk and water; else you will end up with a very thick, kheer-like drink that won't be as soothing."

Source for turmeric actually seems important, since lead contamination is a relatively real issue. Fresh turmeric avoids most of the risk of adulteration, but IMO organic turmeric powder from somewhere like Starwest Botanicals or Frontier probably has good enough QC that it is a non-issue.

Edited by Adaptogen, 13 November 2017 - 12:40 AM.

[ron45]

Enhanced absorption and pharmacokinetics of fresh turmeric (Curcuma Longa L) derived curcuminoids in comparison with the standard curcumin from dried rhizomes

"Thus, the relative absorption of curcuminoids from 1000 mg FTC (turmeric juice powder) was found to be about 46-fold higher, as compared to the absorption from DTC (95% curcumin extract) containing an equivalent dose of curcuminoid"

So based on this, you can get 46x absorption with just using turmeric powder, or fresh turmeric as opposed to a curcumin extract. There is also likely something to turmeric's traditional consumption as haldi doodh (golden milk). Curcumin binds to casein micelles which enhances bioavailability, and this may not be so different from phytosomal-type formulations of curcumin like Meriva or Longvida. Heating of milk alters the binding of curcumin to casein micelles. A fluorescence spectroscopy study.
Adaptogen, I thank you for your diligence and taking the time to share the information on how to best utilize the anti-inflammatory properties of turmeric and the curcumin it may  contain.

 

Here in central New Mexico I have never seen a stick of turmeric. So pardon my ignorance please, I'm guessing these sticks cut from whole turmeric roots. I have seen those in health food stores like La Montanita in Albuquerque. I really like the idea of the milk mixture. I reminds me of some long passages from the yoga sutras of Jamey or Patangoli, pardon the spelling and possible confusion as to the proper text, it's been a very long time, 25 or 30 years, since I was exposed to this stuff. In these ancient documents there are very long verses on the extraction of soma which are described in the most loving and joyful way. I always wanted some. The words milch Kine have always stuck in my head without the slightest clue as to their meaning. Tho I assigned, in my head, the words `milk cow' they have no basis in fact that I'm aware of. These passages were doled out like bed time stories just before Sama Veda, during several long residence courses my wife and I attended Cobb Mountain in Napa Valley Ca.

 

Ron

 

A traditional recipe for turmeric milk (from Times of India):

"1. Take an inch-long stick of turmeric. Remember that turmeric powder is never as effective as crushed turmeric sticks, because the chances of contamination in the powder are high, plus its efficacy is also bound to reduce during the heat-generating grinding process. So, take a stick of turmeric (the variety used in cooking; varali manjal in Thamizh) and crush it coarsely using a mortar and pestle.
2. Crush a few peppercorns too. The white variety is better.
3. Mix a cup of water with a cup of milk, add the crushed turmeric and pepper and bring to a boil.
4. Simmer for 20 minutes. By this time, the milk will reduce to a cup. This is the reason why I suggest you begin with a mixture of milk and water; else you will end up with a very thick, kheer-like drink that won't be as soothing."

Source for turmeric actually seems important, since lead contamination is a relatively real issue. Fresh turmeric avoids most of the risk of adulteration, but IMO organic turmeric powder from somewhere like Starwest Botanicals or Frontier probably has good enough QC that it is a non-issue.

 

Edited by ron45, 31 January 2018 - 05:55 PM.

[YOLF]

Personally, here's what I think on the subject of turmeric and curcumin supplements.

 

Turmeric (with whatever else) - is serotonergic and a subclinical serotonin syndrome will dull some pain. Turmeric is also used to bypass drug tests and taking it will give you a false positive for using a cleansing routine to hide drug use, so unless you're retired, and it we live forever no one will be, I'd stay away from it entirely. Excess serotonin will also make you lazy.

 

Curcumin (from metaCurcumin @ RevGenetics) - it's benefits stem entirely from it's anti-inflammatory action and you don't get an experience that confuses the results (such as dulling of pain from higher serotonin and from curcumin). Also shouldn't be the test marker on a drug test as it is poorly absorbed and would be very difficult to detect on a drug screen. Though I suppose I should test that theory and buy a home drug screen before counting on it. MetaCurcumin is great for one's cosmetic appearance also and that's what I use it for at present.

 

In the past, I might have told you to take Meriva for pain, but the pain killing effect of Meriva is more like taking something to mask the pain rather than to help heal it. I eventually made further improvements to my diet and food allergen exposure (as opposed to treating them) and didn't need the Meriva for inflammatory pain.

 

Also, as turmeric is a serotonergic, you could actually wind up with more pain if you take too much of it (I've seen reports of people taking up to 20g/day in some cases) as serotonin syndrome, should it occur can do some damage that will cause pain. It just isn't worth it to get micro amounts of curcumin and the MetaCurcumin is comparatively inexpensive for how long it lasts at $60/squirt bottle.

[Heisok]

Yolf, I am not sure why you sayTurmeric would be serotonergic, but not Curcuminoids? If this is based on your personal experience, then that is different?

 

"An Overview of Curcumin in Neurological Disorders"

"The antidepressant activity of curcumin was further explored by combining it with various conventional and newly discovered antidepressants. To this end, we found that curcumin enhanced the anti-immobility effect of sub-effective doses of f1uoxetine (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor), bupropion (dopamine reuptake inhibitor) and venlafaxine (dual reuptake inhibitor of serotonin and norepinephrine)[8]. Interestingly, curcumin did not potentiate the antidepressant effect of desipramine (tricyclic antidepressant and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor) and imipramine (tricyclic antidepressant)[8]. This gives an indication of the involvement of serotoninergic and dopaminergic system in the antidepressant action of curcumin. When the brain neurotransmitter levels were checked following curcumin administration, it increased the levels of serotonin and dopamine but not norepinephrine in the mouse brain[8]. Further, curcumin potentiated the brain levels of serotonin when combined with various antidepressant agents[8]. Therefore, from all the above findings, it can be concluded that the antidepressant action of curcumin majorly involves the serotoninergic neurotransmission. This is further confirmed from the study by Wang and colleagues, who have demonstrated that curcumin antidepressant action is blocked by p-chlorophenylalanine, a tryptophan hydroxylase inhibition[9]. Moreover, it has been demonstrated that the antidepressant action of curcumin involves the participation of 5-HT(1A/1B) and 5-HT(2C) receptors[9]. However, in contrast to these studies, Xu and colleagues have demonstrated an increase in noradrenaline levels in the frontal cortex and striatum regions of the rat brain following curcumin administration"

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2929771/