19 replies to this topic

[lbass]

Hi everyone,

 

For some background: I have post-concussion syndrome (a few years since the sporting accident). A nutritional GP was helping me with a supplement stack for the concussion (this doctor is excellent). A recent SPECT scan showed significant hypoperfusion to my temporal lobes, and I was then recommended to start dextroamphetamine to help improve my quality of life. Dextroamphetamine has been very helpful for me. It did make my migraines worse, so I have added topiramate to help combat that. My issue is that my nutritional GP does not prescribe dextroamphetamine and is unfamiliar with neurotoxicity, tolerance, vitamin interactions, etc. I have been trying to modify my old stack to be more appropriate around the timing of the stimulant, as well as adding a few vitamins which seem to be quite beneficial. This is what I have come up with:

 

6am

Treadmill

 

7:15am

Acetyl-L-Carnitine - 500mg

CoQ10 - 100 mg

Magnesium Citrate - 200 mg

L-Theanine 100 mg

L-Arginine 500 mg

 

7:45am

Dextroamphetamine 2.5 mg (I am taking stimulants every day at the moment while I get used to them. Longer term I will take weekends off. I will move to an extended release once we have got the dose right).

 

Breakfast 8:15am

Pristiq 50mg (would there be a better way to break this up then having it with the vitamins?)

Fish Oil (EPA 528 mg/DHA 372 mg)

Selenium 100 mcg

N-Acetyl-Cysteine 600 mg

Brain Active LongVida 400mg

Thorne Basic B Complex

 

10:30am

Acetyl-L-Carnitine - 500 mg

 

12:30 pm

Dextroamphetamine 2.5 mg

 

Lunch 1 pm

Vitamin E 400 mg

Vitamin D3 2000 IU

L-Theanine 100 mg

Vitamin B6 100 mg

Zinc Citrate 25 mg

L-Arginine 500 mg

 

2:30pm

Acetyl-L-Carnitine - 500 mg

 

Dinner 6:30pm

Vitamin C 2000 mg

Fish Oil (EPA 528 mg/DHA 372 mg)

Magnesium Citrate 200 mg

Acetyl-L-Carnitine - 500mg

Curcumin 665 mg

N-Acetyl-Cysteine 600 mg

Selenium 100 mcg

L-Tyrosine 500 mg (I have not started taking this yet as I cannot decide whether it is dangerous or not when taking dextroamphetamine every day as I am at the moment).

Fusion Probiotic

 

8:30pm

Topiramate 25 mg

 

9pm

Melatonin 3 mg - 6 hour time released (started this last week. I have been waking up a lot during the night and having very vivid dreams. Should I swap to 5-htp?)

 

Things to try

Memantine: I want to start taking this, once everything else is sorted. What dose and where should I slot it in? Other vitamins I see mentioned a lot: R-ALA, ALA, Green Tea Extract, CDP Choline, Taurine. I think I have way too many vitamins as is but if something is vital to what I am trying to achieve, then I would add it.

 

I am mainly interested in feedback on the timing of when I am taking the supplements. I have had particular trouble trying to sort out the morning; taking some on an empty stomach before the stimulant and some with breakfast (problem is I also take Pristiq at this time).

 

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated as I just do not understand this stuff and I have tried my best with this!

[YOLF]

Early on with melatonin you will accomplish a full nights sleep in much less time, but melatonin gets recycled, so it's not something you're supposed to use every night. So you should fall asleep and stay asleep better for several nights with one dose.

 

Memantine? Haven't taken it yet, but based on the action, I'd take it at night. Would love to see how you report the experience.

 

Theanine and tyrosine will limit the efficacy of the dexedrine. Tyrosine competes for receptors with dopamine. I wouldn't worry about getting 200mcg of selenium a day. Lower doses are fine.

 

Are you getting the Rxs from the same doc?

Edited by YOLF, 07 November 2017 - 05:12 AM.

[lbass]

That's very interesting about the Melatonin. Thank you for the information. What sort of schedule do people normally take it then?

 

I will definitely report back with Memantine findings. I have read too many good things to not give it a try.

 

The vitamins I added myself without my doctor were: L-Tyrosine, L-Theanine, L-Arginine and Selenium. I have only started taking the Selenium so far. Are you saying that you would or would not take the L-Theanine and L-Tyrosine?

 

My biggest concern is whether any of the before breakfast, breakfast, or lunch vitamins could interfere with the dextroamphetamine. I was initially just going to take everything at night to get it out of the way of the medications but this was not really feasible. Also the split of pre-breakfast and then breakfast vitamins has been pieced together from bit I have found online. I do not know if there is any logic to my structure.

[YOLF]

Magnesium should be taken later in the day, I've found that fish oil slows weight loss if you're on a diet and working out. It's effects are over rated marketing unless you're a person who can't gain weight... 

 

You need alpha lipoic acid with that much alcar.

 

I'd  take a half b vitamin in the am and half at lunch. But then, there's also a reason I found that I decided I shouldn't take them regularly.

 

[Kinesis]

Timing-wise, you should be okay taking the 500 mg tyrosine with a meal. To put it in perspective, four ounces of ground beef contains about 600 mg tyrosine. Taken with food containing the other twenty-odd amino acids in protein and carbs and fats, that much tyrosine would look pretty much in context to your system.

Not that you’d necessarily benefit from the added tyrosine ... not sure why you’d supplement with just this one amino for your purposes ... but if for whatever reason you’ve decided that it’s appropriate I don’t see any real risk from that modest amount taken with a meal.

[lbass]

Magnesium should be taken later in the day, I've found that fish oil slows weight loss if you're on a diet and working out. It's effects are over rated marketing unless you're a person who can't gain weight... 

 

You need alpha lipoic acid with that much alcar.

 

I'd  take a half b vitamin in the am and half at lunch. But then, there's also a reason I found that I decided I shouldn't take them regularly.

I used to take Magnesium at night only. Then I saw that a lot of people took it 10-30 minutes before their first dex of the day so that is why I added it. Supposedly it helps lower tolerance. I have no idea if that's accurate. I'd happily move it back to night otherwise. For example though, adderallsafety.org specifically says to take it at night but I am getting a lot of contradictory advice.

 

I like taking the fish oil particularly because of the brain hypoperfusion. My nutritional GP is more inclined to agree with you though and does not think very highly of it.

 

Yes I have seen ALA mentioned many times. Would you suggest ALA or R-ALA? I have seen both come up several times and do not know which is best. What dosage and where would I fit in with my current schedule?

 

My B-Complex is not very cuttable to take a half. What is the thinking behind this?

 

Timing-wise, you should be okay taking the 500 mg tyrosine with a meal. To put it in perspective, four ounces of ground beef contains about 600 mg tyrosine. Taken with food containing the other twenty-odd amino acids in protein and carbs and fats, that much tyrosine would look pretty much in context to your system.

Not that you’d necessarily benefit from the added tyrosine ... not sure why you’d supplement with just this one amino for your purposes ... but if for whatever reason you’ve decided that it’s appropriate I don’t see any real risk from that modest amount taken with a meal.

 

 

Thank you so much for the information. My whole aim is trying to reduce the neutoxicity of the long term use of dextroamphetamine. Dopamine is depleted by the dextroamphetamine and L-Tyrosine replenishes it. The problem is that apparently L-Tyrosine can dangerously increase the effects of dextroamphetamine so they recommend taking it on your days off (but I do not really have days off). So I was trying to work out if it would be safe to have it at night?

 

Similarly I was looking for feedback on the L-Theanine, L-Arginine and Selenium timing/interaction with dex?

 

And an update on my list. I actually take the Zinc Citrate and Vitamin E (that I have listed at lunch time) with dinner. I don't think I can edit my original list.

Edited by lbass, 08 November 2017 - 02:03 AM.

[YOLF]

 

Magnesium should be taken later in the day, I've found that fish oil slows weight loss if you're on a diet and working out. It's effects are over rated marketing unless you're a person who can't gain weight... 

 

You need alpha lipoic acid with that much alcar.

 

I'd  take a half b vitamin in the am and half at lunch. But then, there's also a reason I found that I decided I shouldn't take them regularly.

I used to take Magnesium at night only. Then I saw that a lot of people took it 10-30 minutes before their first dex of the day so that is why I added it. Supposedly it helps lower tolerance. I have no idea if that's accurate. I'd happily move it back to night otherwise. For example though, adderallsafety.org specifically says to take it at night but I am getting a lot of contradictory advice.

 

I like taking the fish oil particularly because of the brain hypoperfusion. My nutritional GP is more inclined to agree with you though and does not think very highly of it.

 

Yes I have seen ALA mentioned many times. Would you suggest ALA or R-ALA? I have seen both come up several times and do not know which is best. What dosage and where would I fit in with my current schedule?

 

My B-Complex is not very cuttable to take a half. What is the thinking behind this?

 

Timing-wise, you should be okay taking the 500 mg tyrosine with a meal. To put it in perspective, four ounces of ground beef contains about 600 mg tyrosine. Taken with food containing the other twenty-odd amino acids in protein and carbs and fats, that much tyrosine would look pretty much in context to your system.

Not that you’d necessarily benefit from the added tyrosine ... not sure why you’d supplement with just this one amino for your purposes ... but if for whatever reason you’ve decided that it’s appropriate I don’t see any real risk from that modest amount taken with a meal.

 

 

Thank you so much for the information. My whole aim is trying to reduce the neutoxicity of the long term use of dextroamphetamine. Dopamine is depleted by the dextroamphetamine and L-Tyrosine replenishes it. The problem is that apparently L-Tyrosine can dangerously increase the effects of dextroamphetamine so they recommend taking it on your days off (but I do not really have days off). So I was trying to work out if it would be safe to have it at night?

 

Similarly I was looking for feedback on the L-Theanine, L-Arginine and Selenium timing/interaction with dex?

 

And an update on my list. I actually take the Zinc Citrate and Vitamin E (that I have listed at lunch time) with dinner. I don't think I can edit my original list.

 

Hm, I'd side with the safety people. If Mg sensitizes you, it will do the same at night as during the day and prevent you from not being able to fall asleep. So you'll have more mental energy both ways.  Though it doesn't have to be at night, it could also be later in the day.  Perhaps the  people taking Mg in the morning are very light or women and need to lower the effect as well as prevent tolerance of the lower dose and the people taking Mg at night get just the right effects from the Dex/Adderall without getting too 'wired?' That would make sense to me. I'd go by weight, and age/liver function actually.  Function declines with age, but some have more robust livers than others.  Most starter doses are probably intended for 70kg people.  

[YOLF]

ALA w/ ALCAR is meant to soak up the extra mitochondrial ROS that is generated by doses of ALCAR exceeding 500mg. ALA is fine for that, but R-ALA is icing on the cake and much more expensive by comparison. R-ALA's ability to fight mitochondrial free radicals dwarfs ALA's and it will have additional benefits.  If you ever decide to add PQQ, I'd suggest sticking to ALA while you use it rather than R-ALA as you want to kill off lower energy producing mitos and replace them with the PQQ. Don't take ALA and RALA together, otherwise their is virtually no benefit over taking the ALA by itself.

 

B complexes are water soluble, splitting them up can give you higher average levels throughout the day, but taking it too late will get you wired and interfere with sleep.

 

Tocotrienols are a better form of vitamin E that will be better for preserving and regenerating any damage caused in the brain should it occur considering you're taking it with other things.

Edited by YOLF, 08 November 2017 - 02:59 AM.

[lbass]

ALA is fine for that, but R-ALA is icing on the cake and much more expensive by comparison. R-ALA's ability to fight mitochondrial free radicals dwarfs ALA's and it will have additional benefits. 

 

 

I was suggested today to take this CoQ10 (I'm in Australia): http://www.bloomshea...celle-enhanced/

 

I could go with this CoQ10 and then also take R-ALA. I have found two on iHerb: "ALLMAX Nutrition, R+ Alpha Lipoic Acid" and "Doctor's Best, Best Stabilized R-Lipoic Acid". Would either of these be okay to go with the ALCAR? How many would I take per day and when?

 

I will change to the Tocotrienols. Great suggestion thank you.

[lbass]

I am changing now from IR dex to compounded slow release dex. I have also changed the vitamin schedule a little. With the IR the aim was to wait 30 minutes before eating. On the slow release apparently it can take 1 hour until you feel the effect. Does this mean I should not eat for an hour after taking it?

 

6am

Treadmill

 

7:00 am (Empty Stomach)

Acetyl-L-Carnetine - 500mg

CoQ10 - 150 mg

L-Theanine 100 mg

L-Arginine 500 mg

 

7:30am (Empty Stomach)

Dexamphetamine 5 mg slow release compounded from powder.

 

Breakfast 8:30 am

Pristiq 50mg

 

10:30am

Acetyl-L-Carnetine - 500 mg

 

Lunch 12:30 pm

Thorne Basic B Complex

Brain Active LongVida (Curcumin) 400mg

Vitamin D3 2000 IU

Vitamin B6 100 mg

N-Acetyl-Cysteine 600 mg

 

2:30pm

Acetyl-L-Carnetine - 500 mg

L-Theanine 100 mg

L-Arginine 500 mg

 

Dinner 6:30pm

Vitamin C 2000 mg

Tocotrienols 50 mg

Zinc Citrate 25 mg

Fish Oil (EPA 528 mg/DHA 372 mg) x 2

Magnesium Citrate 400 mg

N-Acetyl-Cysteine 600 mg

Selenium 200 mcg

Fusion Probiotic (High Lactobacillus)

 

8pm 

L-Tyrosine 500 mg

 

8:30pm

Topiramate 25 mg

 

9pm: Melatonin 3 mg - 6 hour time released - I still don't like the Melatonin. I will start to cycle it in the short term. I would like to swap to 5-HTP but because I take Prestiq I am not sure if this is safe. Does anybody know?

 

My remaining questions:

1. Does anybody know how long to wait to eat after taking dextroamphetamine slow release? Do I need to wait 1 hour? At the moment this is leading to a schedule of eating at 8:30am after getting up at 6am. I don't like that large wait. My main problem at the moment is the morning routine: waking up vitamins/dex/breakfast/pristiq.
2. Does it make sense to take the vitamins before the dex as I have listed? Can L-Theanine or L-Arginine interfere with the dex? I would also like to take the b-complex and longvida in the morning but I do not want to take them with at breakfast with the Pristiq so I moved them to lunch.

Edited by lbass, 08 November 2017 - 12:44 PM.

[YOLF]

 

ALA is fine for that, but R-ALA is icing on the cake and much more expensive by comparison. R-ALA's ability to fight mitochondrial free radicals dwarfs ALA's and it will have additional benefits. 

 

 

I was suggested today to take this CoQ10 (I'm in Australia): http://www.bloomshea...celle-enhanced/

 

I could go with this CoQ10 and then also take R-ALA. I have found two on iHerb: "ALLMAX Nutrition, R+ Alpha Lipoic Acid" and "Doctor's Best, Best Stabilized R-Lipoic Acid". Would either of these be okay to go with the ALCAR? How many would I take per day and when?

 

I will change to the Tocotrienols. Great suggestion thank you.

 

I'm curious about the excipients in this product. I'm surprised they have everything else on it. The major retail brand here in the the US, Qunol, contains food allergens in the excipients (other ingredients), but you should compare labels and specs,,, This Australian version sounds like it's got some distinct advantages. Do they have to list other ingredients in AU?

 

I'm not sure whether these target the same mito ROS as ALA. All of this stuff has different benefits.

[lbass]

I am going to go and check on the label if the other ingredients are listed. They normally do list them. 

 

So would you just go with an ALA then? Or is there a particular R-ALA you would recommend?

[YOLF]

I am going to go and check on the label if the other ingredients are listed. They normally do list them. 

 

So would you just go with an ALA then? Or is there a particular R-ALA you would recommend?

I did some bargain shopping, and at the time, the RALA at bulksupplements was priced the best, but I still have alot in bottles from vitacost to use up. I've been using it b/c I bought a bunch of it, but I don't perceive much of a difference, but it's supposed to slow aging in a few ways that I guess I'm less susceptible to or it's effects are just redundant. I don't use ALCAR btw, but when I was trying it, I used regular ALA.

 

Oh, actually, I will recommend Hard Rhino. Their supplements could be used as bricks they're packed so air tight. If you rasp your fist on their stuff it will sound like knocking on a door. It saves space and keeps things fresh until you use it. Their selection is kinda limited. I wish the rest of the brands would use similar packing methods.

[lbass]

Have you ever taken tums beforehand? I have read a lot of conflicting opinions on this.

[YOLF]

I guess my lack of response is from taking tons of other sulfur compounds that likely have similar effects, but are not as prominently studied for the purpose.

 

Here's ALA

 

I may have taken turns with RALA and ALA, but if I did, I wouldn't have noted any benefits. As it turns out, MSM which is good for skin can be used by mitos as well. PQQ also promotes mito biogenesis and replaces poorly performing mitos. Any of that can be useful if you plan for it. Are you sure you shouldn't be taking centrophenoxine and acetyl l carnosine? I would think those would work better. As it turns out, ALCAR is a nootropic only where there seems to be a disease or perhaps advanced aging, though it may also facilitate weight loss as it's a transporter of fatty acids into mitos. The ROS generated may as well be the ROS generated from working out. I'm uncertain at this point as to why there is so much fear of the ROS generated by mito using ALCAR... It looks like it can be used for fat loss (maybe) w/o ALA if taken on a low carb diet, otherwise blood glucose will rise. With the dextroamphetamine, since it will keep you from eating, it will probably work very well for burning more fat, though the increase in adrenaline may raise blood sugar. Do you have a glucometer? You don't need an Rx for them.

[CWF1986]

Have you ever taken tums beforehand? I have read a lot of conflicting opinions on this.

 

You're effectively increasing the dose by decreasing the rate that you eliminate the medicine.  If you're taking a prescribed dosage of a medicine, it's best to talk about dose increases with the doctor before basically doing it yourself.  Quite frankly, I mostly just see this done by people abusing amphetamine to get higher for longer.  

[lbass]

 

Have you ever taken tums beforehand? I have read a lot of conflicting opinions on this.

 

You're effectively increasing the dose by decreasing the rate that you eliminate the medicine.  If you're taking a prescribed dosage of a medicine, it's best to talk about dose increases with the doctor before basically doing it yourself.  Quite frankly, I mostly just see this done by people abusing amphetamine to get higher for longer.  

 

Thank you so much for this explanation. I think I will give it a miss. I was initially taking IR on an empty stomach and I have moved to slow release with food. I am finding it not even close to as effective. Hence I have been looking into absorption factors. It seems as though empty stomach would be ideal.

[lbass]

I guess my lack of response is from taking tons of other sulfur compounds that likely have similar effects, but are not as prominently studied for the purpose.

 

Here's ALA

 

I may have taken turns with RALA and ALA, but if I did, I wouldn't have noted any benefits. As it turns out, MSM which is good for skin can be used by mitos as well. PQQ also promotes mito biogenesis and replaces poorly performing mitos. Any of that can be useful if you plan for it. Are you sure you shouldn't be taking centrophenoxine and acetyl l carnosine? I would think those would work better. As it turns out, ALCAR is a nootropic only where there seems to be a disease or perhaps advanced aging, though it may also facilitate weight loss as it's a transporter of fatty acids into mitos. The ROS generated may as well be the ROS generated from working out. I'm uncertain at this point as to why there is so much fear of the ROS generated by mito using ALCAR... It looks like it can be used for fat loss (maybe) w/o ALA if taken on a low carb diet, otherwise blood glucose will rise. With the dextroamphetamine, since it will keep you from eating, it will probably work very well for burning more fat, though the increase in adrenaline may raise blood sugar. Do you have a glucometer? You don't need an Rx for them.

I have just ordered a Ubiquinol plus PQQ. I have also ordered the R-ALA. Hopefully it is a good combination. Can I take the ALCAR and R-ALA together? That's where I will place it on my schedule.

[YOLF]

 

I guess my lack of response is from taking tons of other sulfur compounds that likely have similar effects, but are not as prominently studied for the purpose.

 

Here's ALA

 

I may have taken turns with RALA and ALA, but if I did, I wouldn't have noted any benefits. As it turns out, MSM which is good for skin can be used by mitos as well. PQQ also promotes mito biogenesis and replaces poorly performing mitos. Any of that can be useful if you plan for it. Are you sure you shouldn't be taking centrophenoxine and acetyl l carnosine? I would think those would work better. As it turns out, ALCAR is a nootropic only where there seems to be a disease or perhaps advanced aging, though it may also facilitate weight loss as it's a transporter of fatty acids into mitos. The ROS generated may as well be the ROS generated from working out. I'm uncertain at this point as to why there is so much fear of the ROS generated by mito using ALCAR... It looks like it can be used for fat loss (maybe) w/o ALA if taken on a low carb diet, otherwise blood glucose will rise. With the dextroamphetamine, since it will keep you from eating, it will probably work very well for burning more fat, though the increase in adrenaline may raise blood sugar. Do you have a glucometer? You don't need an Rx for them.

I have just ordered a Ubiquinol plus PQQ. I have also ordered the R-ALA. Hopefully it is a good combination. Can I take the ALCAR and R-ALA together? That's where I will place it on my schedule.

 

I think I read something to the effect that you shouldn't or that it was wasteful actually. I think I was also just talking about not taking PQQ with mitochondrial antioxidants to get better efficiency. I would take the PQQ and ubiquinol separately. If you're helping the weakest mitos stay alive, they won't get replaced with better new ones and they will continue to pollute your cells. Of course, some of them might be salvageable if the antioxidant is sufficient to make repairs. But that's why I'd take them separately.

 

I'll also say that I stop seeing improvements when I take it for a prolonged amount of time. I'd cycle it to save money when that happens. Higher doses will get me there in a shorter amount of time too, so I tend to favor higher dosing of PQQ around 40-60mg/day (max from rodent studies is 100mg for daily dosing). Having a PQQ that comes with something else also just keeps you from getting younger longer.

[Eryximachus]

I guess my lack of response is from taking tons of other sulfur compounds that likely have similar effects, but are not as prominently studied for the purpose.

 

Here's ALA

 

I may have taken turns with RALA and ALA, but if I did, I wouldn't have noted any benefits. As it turns out, MSM which is good for skin can be used by mitos as well. PQQ also promotes mito biogenesis and replaces poorly performing mitos. Any of that can be useful if you plan for it. Are you sure you shouldn't be taking centrophenoxine and acetyl l carnosine? I would think those would work better. As it turns out, ALCAR is a nootropic only where there seems to be a disease or perhaps advanced aging, though it may also facilitate weight loss as it's a transporter of fatty acids into mitos. The ROS generated may as well be the ROS generated from working out. I'm uncertain at this point as to why there is so much fear of the ROS generated by mito using ALCAR... It looks like it can be used for fat loss (maybe) w/o ALA if taken on a low carb diet, otherwise blood glucose will rise. With the dextroamphetamine, since it will keep you from eating, it will probably work very well for burning more fat, though the increase in adrenaline may raise blood sugar. Do you have a glucometer? You don't need an Rx for them.

 

Amphetamine does not increase adrenaline.  It works because it is structurally similar to adrenaline. It directly affects glyocgenesis and glycolysis.  

Edited by Eryximachus, 06 January 2018 - 05:18 PM.