182 replies to this topic

[Harkijn]

im very skeptical eating corn and peas alone would help achieve max level spermidine. what are you suppose to do anyway, eat tons of the stuff daily for years? you might just end up throwing up like in the exorcist all green/yellow mush

Do not confuse max levels with optimal levels....

[normalizing]

 

im very skeptical eating corn and peas alone would help achieve max level spermidine. what are you suppose to do anyway, eat tons of the stuff daily for years? you might just end up throwing up like in the exorcist all green/yellow mush

Do not confuse max levels with optimal levels....

 

 

how are you so sure you dont have optimal levels right now? when people talk about supplements they mean max levels of something thats considered good.

[Darryl]

Personally, I'm hoping for commercial sales of The Longevity Labs (TLL) wheat germ extract, used in this toxicity study:

 

Schwarz et al, 2018. Safety and tolerability of spermidine supplementation in mice and older adults with subjective cognitive decline. Aging, 10(1), p.19.

 

According to this study, wheat germ has 2,440 nmol/g (=0.325 mg/g) spermidine:

 

Nishimura et al, 2006. Decrease in polyamines with aging and their ingestion from food and drink. J Biochem, 139(1), pp.81-90.

 

It's very easy to consume 3 Tbsp wheat germ (= 21 g, and 6.8 mg spermidine) in one's daily cereal or smoothie (its rather tasty). I've done it for years primarily to correct chronic shortfalls of food sourced vitamin E and other tocopherols, but the fact that I'm consuming ~ $0.64 worth of spermidine in $0.18 of wheat germ is a bonus.

 

 

 

Edited by Darryl, 17 March 2018 - 07:58 PM.

[Oakman]

I bought some wheat germ, and have successfully made delicious cookies from it. So taking wheat germ is easy. 

I'm a great lover of all strongly fermented cheeses, like sharp Chedder, any Blue, Gorgonzola, Roquefort, Cambozola, virtually any cheese with a strong pungent taste.

Some regular foods in my diet that are rich in the stuff are chicken, Tofu, Broccoli, Leafy greens, mushrooms, and others.

 

If I don't get quite enough spermidine doing this, so be it, but I get quite a bit, at only the cost of wholesome foods I eat and enjoy anyway.

 

No need for expensive supplementing, just living the life. What could be easier and simpler than that?

[Nate-2004]

Yeah I kind of agree Oakman my only issue is the gluten, which, while I don't have celiacs, 23 and me said I have the gene for it. However, the more I can incorporate into meals the cheaper and easier it is to manage.

[normalizing]

darryl, which brand wheat germ are you using?

[Shemp999]

Fermented Wheat Germ Freeze Dried Extract (regular and gluten free on Amazon.) No mention of spermidine content. Very expensive:

 

https://www.amazon.c...DXP994JR5C57TX2

 

Gluten free:

 

https://www.amazon.c...d=AGKE31MHXYB4U

[ceridwen]

Spermidine is unobtainable where I am

[Shemp999]

The patent on Avemar (fermented wheat germ)

 

http://patft.uspto.g...4&RS=PN/6355474

 

 

[APBT]

Regarding wheat germ and spermidine content, which is superior, raw or toasted?

Edited by APBT, 18 March 2018 - 03:32 PM.

[Harkijn]

Oakman said:

 

'If I don't get quite enough spermidine doing this, so be it, but I get quite a bit, at only the cost of wholesome foods I eat and enjoy anyway.

 

No need for expensive supplementing, just living the life. What could be easier and simpler than that?'

 

I totally agree.

Just to refresh everyone's memory I link to a recent review  that points out that the  human body  produces an amount of spermidine from arginine.

The researchers are clearly uneasy about the fact that the mass killer H.Pylori  produces copious amounts of spermidine. And they warn against rashly supplementing.

https://juniperpubli...S.ID.555576.pdf

Edited by Harkijn, 18 March 2018 - 03:50 PM.

[poonja]

Has anyone used this substance as of yet?  I intend to acquire five grams and have no idea what a proper dose would be.  As it is found in various food sources, I assume oral consumption would be a viable roa.  Any information would be welcome.

[Crosstrash]

Personally, I'm hoping for commercial sales of The Longevity Labs (TLL) wheat germ extract, used in this toxicity study:

 

Schwarz et al, 2018. Safety and tolerability of spermidine supplementation in mice and older adults with subjective cognitive decline. Aging, 10(1), p.19.

 

According to this study, wheat germ has 2,440 nmol/g (=0.325 mg/g) spermidine:

 

Nishimura et al, 2006. Decrease in polyamines with aging and their ingestion from food and drink. J Biochem, 139(1), pp.81-90.

 

It's very easy to consume 3 Tbsp wheat germ (= 21 g, and 6.8 mg spermidine) in one's daily cereal or smoothie (its rather tasty). I've done it for years primarily to correct chronic shortfalls of food sourced vitamin E and other tocopherols, but the fact that I'm consuming ~ $0.64 worth of spermidine in $0.18 of wheat germ is a bonus.

 

 

The problem here comes with the amounts. In the regular experiments for the lifespan(like here: https://www.nature.c...rticles/nm.4222 ), the amount given to mice is 0.3 mM/Liter. If we suppose a mice drinks on average 15ml/100g of body weight a day and also that they are drinking the same as usual in the experiments(a typical problem with mice):

 

0.3mM/L * 15 ml/100g = 4.5 * 10^-5 M/kg
Spermidine has 145.25 g/M, so if the same proportion is applied to humans:

145.25 g/M * 0.3 * 15 * 10^-5 M/kg = 6.54 mg/kg

 

So for a 90kg weight person, this means

588 mg a day of Spermidine.

 

Which on regular basis, using the tables means you will need to eat 2kg of the wheat germ a day...so it has to be supplemented. And because of the prices, you will spend around 6$ a day for Spermidine supplementing.

Edited by Crosstrash, 09 April 2018 - 10:00 AM.

[William Sterog]

The problem here comes with the amounts. In the regular experiments for the lifespan(like here: https://www.nature.c...rticles/nm.4222 ), the amount given to mice is 0.3 mM/Liter. If we suppose a mice drinks on average 15ml/100g of body weight a day and also that they are drinking the same as usual in the experiments(a typical problem with mice):

0.3mM/L * 15 ml/100g = 4.5 * 10^-5 M/kg
Spermidine has 145.25 g/M, so if the same proportion is applied to humans:
145.25 g/M * 0.3 * 15 * 10^-5 M/kg = 6.54 mg/kg

So for a 90kg weight person, this means
588 mg a day of Spermidine.

Which on regular basis, using the tables means you will need to eat 2kg of the wheat germ a day...so it has to be supplemented. And because of the prices, you will spend around 6$ a day for Spermidine supplementing.

Allometric scalling. You should divide by 12.3 the dose in mice to adecuate it to humans.

[Believer]

I think we now know why women on average live longer than men, it's all the spermidine they ingest from their regular trips to clubhouse bathrooms. 

[Ozone8]

Another source of spermidine is discussed here:

 

http://www.longecity...tarter-culture/

 

There is a US source for the BB-12 probiotic several posts down the page.

[APBT]

Personally, I'm hoping for commercial sales of The Longevity Labs (TLL) wheat germ extract, used in this toxicity study:

 

Schwarz et al, 2018. Safety and tolerability of spermidine supplementation in mice and older adults with subjective cognitive decline. Aging, 10(1), p.19.

 

According to this study, wheat germ has 2,440 nmol/g (=0.325 mg/g) spermidine:

 

Nishimura et al, 2006. Decrease in polyamines with aging and their ingestion from food and drink. J Biochem, 139(1), pp.81-90.

 

It's very easy to consume 3 Tbsp wheat germ (= 21 g, and 6.8 mg spermidine) in one's daily cereal or smoothie (its rather tasty). I've done it for years primarily to correct chronic shortfalls of food sourced vitamin E and other tocopherols, but the fact that I'm consuming ~ $0.64 worth of spermidine in $0.18 of wheat germ is a bonus.

 

I contacted The Longevity Labs (TLL) regarding product availability:

 

 

our product will be available on our webpage (www.thelongevitylabs.com) / internet-shop starting Q3/2018. First target markets will be Europe, later we will also build up a separate distribution channel for the USA as soon as we have received GRAS-approval. If you register on our homepage we will keep you updated with all news and market-launch activities.

 

Kind regards

Gerald

 

Dr. Gerald Sitte

Managing Director

[Harkijn]

Regarding wheat germ and spermidine content, which is superior, raw or toasted?

I happened to come across this article. The writer claims raw is a bit better.

 

She seems rather concerned about storing wheat germ while my regular brand (of the raw variety) just says: store in a dark, dry place.

http://vegetarian.lo...m_Vacuum_Packed

[normalizing]

Another source of spermidine is discussed here:

 

http://www.longecity...tarter-culture/

 

There is a US source for the BB-12 probiotic several posts down the page.

 

i dont get it. i checked the thread but it has bifidobacterium as spermidine source? but that bacteria is widely available in all kinds of products especially generic yogurts etc.

[Harkijn]

i dont get it. i checked the thread but it has bifidobacterium as spermidine source? but that bacteria is widely available in all kinds of products especially generic yogurts etc.

That's correct: we need to eat an amount of probiotic foods, some foods rich in arginine, ample fiber. They all combine with polyamine rich foods (and, if you wish, a spermidine supplement) to produce more spermidine.

How they go about this? I attach a very readable recent overview. The authors are very enthusiastic about the possibilities of spermidine.

(@Darryl: I apologize if you pointed to this overview already)

Attached Files

•  10.1126@science.aan2788.pdf   1.06MB   7 downloads

[Harkijn]

And about wheat germ extract:

 

This company sells wheat germ extract targeting (but not limiting itself to) cancer patients. The price per sachet is high but healthy people would perhaps not need 17gms of extract per day. Dividing one sachet in 3 portions would make the price per day acceptable....

http://avemarshop.eu...en/about-avemar

Edited by Harkijn, 21 May 2018 - 03:31 PM.

[normalizing]

not available in US though. interesting they mention no sugar and then i see "fructose" in the ingredients. i guess fructose is not sugar now...

[Harkijn]

not available in US though. interesting they mention no sugar and then i see "fructose" in the ingredients. i guess fructose is not sugar now...

IOf course available in US . I should have pasted the US link to accomodate US Citizens:

http://www.avemar.com/

 

I am not in favour of fructose but these minute amounts should not be cause for concern for those with a healthy diet. Any really potent substance will need something to make the medicine go down.

[Oakman]

That's must be one heck of a supplement, $185 for 30 days, $6/day! And their US website say, "...it takes several months to enhance the immune system before realizing the benefits of the product.", means you'd have to be pretty sick to stomach that. But if it really is a life saver...perhaps.  I do make some killer wheat germ cookies, if anyone wants the recipe, they could binge on them instead.

[Harkijn]

That's must be one heck of a supplement, $185 for 30 days, $6/day! And their US website say, "...it takes several months to enhance the immune system before realizing the benefits of the product.", means you'd have to be pretty sick to stomach that. But if it really is a life saver...perhaps.  I do make some killer wheat germ cookies, if anyone wants the recipe, they could binge on them instead.

Hi Oakman, yes their dosage is for very sick people...

 

Please post your cookie recipe. I love wheat germs and will certainly try. I wonder if polyamines can stand the heat?

[Oakman]

Hi Oakman, yes their dosage is for very sick people...

 

Please post your cookie recipe. I love wheat germs and will certainly try. I wonder if polyamines can stand the heat?

 

1 cup butter, softened

1/2 cup plain sugar (unrefined, raw or whatever)

1/2 cup brown sugar

2 eggs

1 1/2 tsp vanilla extract

1 1/2 cups rolled oats

1 cup wheat germ

1 cup flour

1 cup flaked coconut

2 cups chopped pecans

1 tsp baking powder

1 tsp baking soda

1 tsp salt

 

Preheat oven 325F (165C)

 

1) In a LARGE bowl, cream butter, sugars until smooth. Beat in eggs, vanilla. 

2) Separately, combine oats, wheat germ, flour, baking soda and baking powder, salt.

3) Stir the dry mixture into the creamed mixture bowl. Mixture will seem too dry while mixing, use a large, strong spoon until is uniform.

4) Mix in the coconut, pecans.

5) Drop spoonfuls onto ungreased baking sheet.

6) Bake 8-10 minutes. Allow to cool couple minutes on sheet before placing on wire rack to finish cooling. 

7) Eat, enjoy!

 

This recipe uses 1/2 the sugar, for even less calories, use some/all sugar substitute such as 1:1 Monkfruit sweetener, zero calories, zero glycemic

[normalizing]

That's must be one heck of a supplement, $185 for 30 days, $6/day! And their US website say, "...it takes several months to enhance the immune system before realizing the benefits of the product.", means you'd have to be pretty sick to stomach that. But if it really is a life saver...perhaps.  I do make some killer wheat germ cookies, if anyone wants the recipe, they could binge on them instead.

 

hmm id rather i try yours. can you send me some? :P

[normalizing]

btw i checked the table of contents again and it seems its kind of outdated, any idea how true it is in modern version of it?

 

from what i gathered, its 4 sources with high content; wheat germ, soy, 1 year old cheddar, and mushrooms etc.

 

so any idea as to why specifically 1 aged cheddar has so much content versus other types of cheese? and what type of mushroom has so much of it. there are so many types from the most popular white button to the wild crafted and exotic medicinals etc. help me solve the mystery!

[Oakman]

btw i checked the table of contents again and it seems its kind of outdated, any idea how true it is in modern version of it?

 

from what i gathered, its 4 sources with high content; wheat germ, soy, 1 year old cheddar, and mushrooms etc.

 

so any idea as to why specifically 1 aged cheddar has so much content versus other types of cheese? and what type of mushroom has so much of it. there are so many types from the most popular white button to the wild crafted and exotic medicinals etc. help me solve the mystery!

 

"Polyamines are present in variable amounts in various foods (22). They originate from amino acids such as arginine and ornithine, which act as precursors and undergo decarboxylation processes by the action of putrefactive bacteria (23, 24). This explains why higher concentrations of polyamines are found in fermented food products such as sauerkraut, some sausages, and cheeses (22, 23). In plants, exposure to salt or osmotic stress seemed to enhance polyamine biosynthesis and, thereby, the contents of polyamines increased (25).

In mammalian cells, the ornithine forms putrescine by the action of the enzyme ornithine decarboxylase. Putrescine then forms spermidine and spermine through a reversible metabolic process (13)."

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3022763/

[Oakman]

^ As to mushrooms, this article highlights shiitake, honshimeji¹, and enokidata² as good sources.

 

https://www.tandfonl...271/bbb.61.1582

 

 

1. The brown or white Beech (honshimeji) mushroom is excellent. I have eaten this and it's available at most grocery stores having raw mushrooms.

 

2. Not sure I have tried these, but they look similar to the honshimeji. Have to keep an eye out for them at Whole Foods I guess.

 

Do a google image search for these, you'll likely recognize them straight away. Actually, looks like the way to go from the chart in the link is to eat a lot of Tofu  Natto and Tempe (soybeans), with mushrooms (these), and wash it all down with green tea.

Edited by Oakman, 23 May 2018 - 07:25 PM.