182 replies to this topic

[normalizing]

interesting mention of the fermented foods having more spermidine than most other foods. yet the charts i have seen, do not even mention fermented foods! a good search reveals so many different tables of different things containing different amounts of spermidine all separate from each other. which confuses me a lot now as to who the hell has it right??

[Oakman]

The chart in the link in my previous post is ALL fermented foods, so what's the confusion??? 

 

Table II. Polyamine Content of Fermented Foods

[Harkijn]

1 cup butter, softened

1/2 cup plain sugar (unrefined, raw or whatever)

1/2 cup brown sugar

2 eggs

1 1/2 tsp vanilla extract

1 1/2 cups rolled oats

1 cup wheat germ

1 cup flour

1 cup flaked coconut

2 cups chopped pecans

1 tsp baking powder

1 tsp baking soda

1 tsp salt

 

Preheat oven 325F (165C)

 

1) In a LARGE bowl, cream butter, sugars until smooth. Beat in eggs, vanilla. 

2) Separately, combine oats, wheat germ, flour, baking soda and baking powder, salt.

3) Stir the dry mixture into the creamed mixture bowl. Mixture will seem too dry while mixing, use a large, strong spoon until is uniform.

4) Mix in the coconut, pecans.

5) Drop spoonfuls onto ungreased baking sheet.

6) Bake 8-10 minutes. Allow to cool couple minutes on sheet before placing on wire rack to finish cooling. 

7) Eat, enjoy!

 

This recipe uses 1/2 the sugar, for even less calories, use some/all sugar substitute such as 1:1 Monkfruit sweetener, zero calories, zero glycemic

Thanks Oakman, I used your recipe(low sugar) for cookies for a gathering of 18 people. The cookies were a vast succes. I had guesstimated 2 cookies/ person on average, but I should have made much more.

Yesterday I baked a non-sweetened variety with finely cut cocoanibs and an intuitive amount of clove powder. This is not for the fainthearted but I like them immensely

[Oakman]

^ Glad everyone was happy! Same thing happened last party I took them to

[normalizing]

The chart in the link in my previous post is ALL fermented foods, so what's the confusion??? 

 

Table II. Polyamine Content of Fermented Foods

 

as i said, if you google charts with spermidine content, there are dozen of sites showing completely different foods and ratios in comparison. the one chart you posted is just one out of like 50. and most charts except the one you showed do not even mention fermented foods as source. now, which of all those charts to be trusted?

[Oakman]

as i said, if you google charts with spermidine content, there are dozen of sites showing completely different foods and ratios in comparison. the one chart you posted is just one out of like 50. and most charts except the one you showed do not even mention fermented foods as source. now, which of all those charts to be trusted?

 

So you looked at a lot of charts, only one, the one I pointed to, showed fermented food, and happily fermented food turns out to have some of the better polyamine results? Go Japan, and thanks! I guess no one else thought to check.

 

As to other publications, I just read this, "Polyamines of Plant Origin – An Important Dietary Consideration for Human Health", and found it very helpful review of polyamine research up to, I think, 2012. It should answer a lot of questions, and raise a few more. The last sentence of the paper agrees, "Nevertheless, there is good evidence to suggest that polyamines assist with healthy ageing. However, more research is required before recommendations on optimal and safe polyamine intake can be made.".

[Harkijn]

Feeling just a bit guilty about derailing this thread from the topic of supplementing Spermidine. Therefore I would like to suggest that those who feel that eating wheat germ, legumes and fermented foods may not give them enough Spermidine, take a look at green tea capsules. They are not expensive and may(though I couldn't prove it) contain a useful amount of Spermidine. And also of the other polyamines with which Spermidine interacts, so as to give you more bang for your buck than the stuff from Sigma. I drink 3 cups of strong organic green tea per day.

[sphere]

I have spermidine from sigma [comes dissolved in water]:

https://www.sigmaald...ng=en&region=US

 

Relative Density @25 °C 0.925 g/mL pH 12.0 - 13.5 Water Solubility @20 °C 145 g/l , molecular weight  145.25 g/mol

excuse my ignorance.  Relative Density @25 °C 0.925 g/mL pH 12.0  would that mean that if there are 20 drops per ml [which is the case] that each drop would be 

less than 50 milligrams [0.925g divided by 20.]???

I plan on taking one drop every 4-5 days.

 

Thank you.

[Shemp999]

 

I have spermidine from sigma [comes dissolved in water]:

https://www.sigmaald...ng=en&region=US

 

Relative Density @25 °C 0.925 g/mL pH 12.0 - 13.5 Water Solubility @20 °C 145 g/l , molecular weight  145.25 g/mol

excuse my ignorance.  Relative Density @25 °C 0.925 g/mL pH 12.0  would that mean that if there are 20 drops per ml [which is the case] that each drop would be 

less than 50 milligrams [0.925g divided by 20.]???

I plan on taking one drop every 4-5 days.

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

Does it need to be refrigerated or is cool/dry OK.  Any estimates on how long its shelf life would be under those conditions.

[normalizing]

sigma checks if you are affiliated with any research department and check documents. how were you able to purchase it?

[sphere]

Does it need to be refrigerated or is cool/dry OK.  Any estimates on how long its shelf life would be under those conditions.

Actually apologies the material is not dissolved in water. It is 99% spermidine. It is a solid below about 76 F, a liquid above that temp. Says store at "room temp." 

Anyone know the answer to me question?

>>Relative Density @25 °C 0.925 g/mL pH 12.0,   13.5 Water Solubility @20 °C 145 g/l , Molecular weight  145.25 g/mol

excuse my ignorance.  Relative Density @25 °C 0.925 g/mL pH 12.0  would that mean that if there are 20 drops per ml [which is the case] that each drop would be 

less than 50 milligrams [0.925g divided by 20.]???

I plan on taking one drop per week if that is correct.  it's liquid at 77 degrees F so an easy way to take.

 

This question was answered on sigma's url:  is this a spermidine solution or a neat liquid, and what is the concentration?

Answer: Based on a density of 0.925 g/mL and a molecular weight of 145.25, this neat liquid has an effective molarity of 6.4 M.

 

https://www.<span>si...span>=region=US

 

a friend got this for me from sigma he sells bio-reactors so lab connections.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[APBT]

 

Posted 16 April 2018 - 05:47 AM

Darryl, on 17 Mar 2018 - 12:56 PM, said:

Personally, I'm hoping for commercial sales of The Longevity Labs (TLL) wheat germ extract, used in this toxicity study:

 

Schwarz et al, 2018. Safety and tolerability of spermidine supplementation in mice and older adults with subjective cognitive decline. Aging, 10(1), p.19.

 

According to this study, wheat germ has 2,440 nmol/g (=0.325 mg/g) spermidine:

 

Nishimura et al, 2006. Decrease in polyamines with aging and their ingestion from food and drink. J Biochem, 139(1), pp.81-90.

 

It's very easy to consume 3 Tbsp wheat germ (= 21 g, and 6.8 mg spermidine) in one's daily cereal or smoothie (its rather tasty). I've done it for years primarily to correct chronic shortfalls of food sourced vitamin E and other tocopherols, but the fact that I'm consuming ~ $0.64 worth of spermidine in $0.18 of wheat germ is a bonus.

 

I contacted The Longevity Labs (TLL) regarding product availability:

 

Quote

 

our product will be available on our webpage (www.thelongevitylabs.com) / internet-shop starting Q3/2018. First target markets will be Europe, later we will also build up a separate distribution channel for the USA as soon as we have received GRAS-approval. If you register on our homepage we will keep you updated with all news and market-launch activities.

 

Kind regards

Gerald

 

Dr. Gerald Sitte

Managing Director

 

 

It looks like their product is now available to German and Austrian customers.  http://www.thelongevitylabs.com/en

[normalizing]

yeh ok thanks thats very informative. how the fuck do you purchase this again...

[Shemp999]

yeh ok thanks thats very informative. how the fuck do you purchase this again...

 

https://www.amazon.c...L70_&dpSrc=srch

[Harkijn]

I stick to three heaping tablespoons of wheatgerm per day myself but this company has a hair care supplement containing spermidine. It is not a webshop but the brand name of the product may give you a lead.

https://giulianipharma.com/en/

[Harkijn]

Nothing spectacular but still an interesting piece of work about spermidine and Alzheimers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/30388439

[boylan]

Nothing spectacular but still an interesting piece of work about spermidine and Alzheimers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/30388439

 

Interesting. They only used 1.2 mg per day.

 

"The spermidine group received a daily dose of 750 mg of spermidine-rich plant extract (with a daily spermidine dose of 1.2 mg) and 510 mg cellulose, dispersed into three capsules. Capsules in the placebo group, three per day, contained in total 750 mg potato starch and 510 mg cellulose. All study capsules (spermidine and placebo) were identical in all aspects (shape, color, taste, and smell) and provided by TLL The Longevity Labs GmbH (Graz, Austria)."

 

https://www.scienced...303137?via=ihub

[Harkijn]

A number of studies point to supplementing agmatine to enhance endogenous spermidine production. This is just one example of such a study:

https://www.research...hectoderm_cells

 

Agmatine is a readily available supplement.

[NoodleHead]

Spermidine consumption tip!

 

I'm currently taking fibogel (psyllium husk) for digestive issues. I discovered that if I add the spermidine (25mg per day in my case) directly to the fiber/water mix it completely absorbs all the taste and smell of spermidine. Result! 

 

 

[sphere]

Spermidine consumption tip!

 

I'm currently taking fibogel (psyllium husk) for digestive issues. I discovered that if I add the spermidine (25mg per day in my case) directly to the fiber/water mix it completely absorbs all the taste and smell of spermidine. Result! 

half life in rats is 4 days. Too much I think,

: Polyamine catabolism and oxidative damage

http://www.jbc.org/c...003337.full.pdf

 

2 edged sword. Consider 25 mg every 3-4 days

 

anyone know conversion for half life in rats to half life in humans

The Dynamics of Synthesis and Degradation of Polyamines in Normal and Regenerating Rat Liver and Brain* (Received for publication, September 10,

http://www.jbc.org/c...4/6732.full.pdf

 

>>yes just as mTOR inhibition idea is to make up for the dysfunction not go overboard. In Nrf2’s aging increases repression thereby reducing activation. Opposite of mTOR. The progressive reduced action of Nrf2 leads to development of various disease conditions. But just as we discussed earlier over inhibition of mTOR leads to detrimental affects similarly over activation of Nrf2 would not just make up for increased repression but go beyond homeostatic state and lead to exhaustion important enzymes and potential for oncogenesis. This is a dichotomy. A normal Nrf2 expression as in our youth is actually cancer preventive. Mark you seem to be on the younger side of 50 so I would suggest you should activate it sparingly as the age related repression may not be so pronounced at your age. Yes I do take a powerful activating formula but only couple of times in a week.<<

 

talking cancer my friend, err on the side of caution perhaps?

[NoodleHead]

half life in rats is 4 days. Too much I think,

: Polyamine catabolism and oxidative damage

http://www.jbc.org/c...003337.full.pdf

 

2 edged sword. Consider 25 mg every 3-4 days

 

anyone know conversion for half life in rats to half life in humans

The Dynamics of Synthesis and Degradation of Polyamines in Normal and Regenerating Rat Liver and Brain* (Received for publication, September 10,

http://www.jbc.org/c...4/6732.full.pdf

 

>>yes just as mTOR inhibition idea is to make up for the dysfunction not go overboard. In Nrf2’s aging increases repression thereby reducing activation. Opposite of mTOR. The progressive reduced action of Nrf2 leads to development of various disease conditions. But just as we discussed earlier over inhibition of mTOR leads to detrimental affects similarly over activation of Nrf2 would not just make up for increased repression but go beyond homeostatic state and lead to exhaustion important enzymes and potential for oncogenesis. This is a dichotomy. A normal Nrf2 expression as in our youth is actually cancer preventive. Mark you seem to be on the younger side of 50 so I would suggest you should activate it sparingly as the age related repression may not be so pronounced at your age. Yes I do take a powerful activating formula but only couple of times in a week.<<

 

talking cancer my friend, err on the side of caution perhaps?

 

Thanks will keep this in mind!

[ta5]

What would be good to dissolve 5g of 99% spermidine in?

At 10-50mg per day, this would last 100-500 days.

I need something that won't go bad in that time.

[Turnbuckle]

What would be good to dissolve 5g of 99% spermidine in?

At 10-50mg per day, this would last 100-500 days.

I need something that won't go bad in that time.

 

 

I've dissolved it at 10% in distilled water and kept it in the fridge for years. No signs of any bacterial growth. And as the half life is 4 days, one doesn't need to take it every day.

[ta5]

I mixed 5g 99% Spermidine into about 43ml distilled water, so the total volume is about 50ml. It disperses well. I'm keeping it in a dropper bottle in the fridge. It's about 5mg/drop.

 

I'm taking 20mg per day for the last couple days. I haven't noticed anything, and I don't expect to. I'll stay at this dose for a week or so before increasing it.

[zorba990]

I've dissolved it at 10% in distilled water and kept it in the fridge for years. No signs of any bacterial growth. And as the half life is 4 days, one doesn't need to take it every day.

How are you timing this in fission v fusion cycles?

[ta5]

How are you timing this in fission v fusion cycles?

 

For now, I'm not. I haven't gotten in to that at all yet. 

[Turnbuckle]

How are you timing this in fission v fusion cycles?

 

 

Spermidine enhances mitophagy, and for me prevents joint pain from resveratrol. It thus goes well with fission/mitophagy, though it shouldn't negatively impact fusion.

[sphere]

I've dissolved it at 10% in distilled water and kept it in the fridge for years. No signs of any bacterial growth. And as the half life is 4 days, one doesn't need to take it every day.

1st u add   tremendously to this forum T. ty.

The 4 day half life i think is in rats, yes? So one would need to convert to human and i know of no "conversion factor". If i am correct on that does anyone know of any rough conversion from a half life of 4 days in rats to humans? 

for sure this does not need to be taken every day, probably good not to. I take one drop which is convenient every 4 days at this point. A bit high [about 45mg] but not w-a-a-y high imo to take every 4 days.  

[Turnbuckle]

1st u add   tremendously to this forum T. ty.

The 4 day half life i think is in rats, yes? So one would need to convert to human and i know of no "conversion factor". If i am correct on that does anyone know of any rough conversion from a half life of 4 days in rats to humans? 

for sure this does not need to be taken every day, probably good not to. I take one drop which is convenient every 4 days at this point. A bit high [about 45mg] but not w-a-a-y high imo to take every 4 days.  

 

 

The half-life for methylspermidine is 3.75 days in human hair follicles (in vitro), according to the paper linked to below. The methylated version was used instead of plain spermidine for their study as spermidine can convert to other polyamines whereas methylspermidine is stable against conversion. Unfortunately, they don't give a half life for plain spermidine. And they don't give it for in vivo.

 

https://sci-hub.se/1...0403-015-1592-9

[sphere]

The half-life for methylspermidine is 3.75 days in human hair follicles (in vitro), according to the paper linked to below. The methylated version was used instead of plain spermidine for their study as spermidine can convert to other polyamines whereas methylspermidine is stable against conversion. Unfortunately, they don't give a half life for plain spermidine. And they don't give it for in vivo.

 

https://sci-hub.se/1...0403-015-1592-9

yes u add tremendously T. i do not have the link for the 4 day half-life for plain spermidine in rats, that's from memory when i researched. Was not aware of this study link. TY. 

Edited by sphere, 27 May 2019 - 08:21 PM.