182 replies to this topic

[Phoebus]

Okay so I have big questions about how much spermidine is in various wheat products. 

 

So there is wheat germ, wheat germ oil, and fermented wheat germ. 

 

Now I have looked high and low to find out how much SP is in wheat germ vs wheat germ oil, and there is ZERO data on this anywhere. ALL the sources I looked have the same number for both - 243 mg/1000 gm

 

But does that really seem possible? SP is water soluble. Are you telling me the SP content of the whole wheat germ is exactly the same as the concentrated wheat germ oil? I have a very difficult time believing that. 

 

The other question I have is re: the amount of SP in products sold on amazon that purport to be SP supplements. The amount of SP per capsule seems fairly low, .5 mg per cap for  spermidineLIFE. I mean that is barely anymore SP than just plain old wheat germ oil. 

 

Therefore I think maybe its smart to skip the expensive supplements and just use a solid WG oil supplement instead.   

 

But then there is fermented wheat germ which has an impressive amount of data on being a potent anti cancer drug 

 

https://nutritionj.b...1475-2891-10-89

 

Now the fermentation process usually has the effect of concentrating nutrients. So does the fermentation process concentrate SP?  Is the SP content of FWG exactly the same as WG and WG oil? More? Less? 

 

I have emailed Avemar, the manufacturer of the most popular FWG product out there and asked about the SP content of their product. No response yet. 

 

https://www.avemar.co/

 

FWG is expensive, maybe not worth the price, but still intriguing to me. 

 

[Phoebus]

Avemar got back to me and answered my question re: SP content of their FWG 

 

Basically they have NOT analyzed their product for SP content. This is their full answer 

 

 

Q:In your opinion, would the fermentation process increase or decrease any existing amount of spermidine in the wheat germ used to create Avemar?

 

We have considered analyzing spermidine in Avemar and also in the raw material before fermentation. But, haven’t done yet.

In May 2020, Dr. Mate Hidvegi, the inventor of Avemar, published a draft paper in Hungarian about the autophagy regulating effects of Avemar and the possible polyamines/ spermidine content of the product and, consequently the possible causative relationship between.  

 Please find the paper here:

 https://www.academia...ronavírus_ellen

 Dr. Hidvegi’s draft paper was also intended as being a response to the research by Christian Drosten (the chief coronavirus expert of Germany) et al., on autophagy, spemidine and coronavirus. 

 Dr. Hidvegi is quite sure that the active molecules responsible for the anti-aging properties of Avemar that has been proposed by many, do include spermidine but, importantly, other molecules, too. 

 Q:Re: health attributes and mechanism of action -  has a cellular, gene regulatory or molecular mechanism of action of the two important benzoquinones: 2,6-dimethoxy-benzoquinone (DMBQ) and 2-methoxy-benzoquinone been identified?

 At the Moffitt Cancer Center in Tampa, a genome-wide laboratory research has been carried out on Avemar and 2,6-DMBQ in several different ovarian cancer cell lines. The researchers identified 27 biological pathways for Avemar's mechanism of action, of what 13 pathways were common in Avemar’s and DMBQ’s actions. 2-MBQ had not been included into the research. 

The results demonstrated significant anticancer activity of Avemar against ovarian cancer cell lines. The researchers concluded (quoted from text): "Our findings demonstrate the value of FWGE as a natural product, with anticancer properties, which may also enhance the activity of existing therapeutic agents.“

 Please find the publication here:

 https://www.research..._22_6_960-7.pdf

 

Hope these answers assist you in purchasing AVEMAR.  If you require further information please contact us.

 

Regards,

 

AVEMAR North America

http://www.AVEMAR.co

1.888.567.7001

1.416.817.5499

 

[Gal220]

Thanks for the info Phoebus!  If you get a moment, please tell us your current regimen for NAD+ in this thread

[Phoebus]

Okay, more good info here 

 

https://www.tandfonl...271/bbb.61.1582

 

first off you will notice that in table 1 the SP content of green tea is extremely high. I have not seen anyone mention that yet. Only soy has more SP than green tea, with shitake mushroom about the same as green tea. 

 

Secondly look at table 2, soy sauce has 100 nmol/g of SP in it, meanwhile saishikomi soy sauce has 190 nmol/g SP. Why is that interesting? Because saishikomi is soy sauce that has been double fermented. So double ferment soy sauce has nearly double the amount of SP as single ferment soy sauce. This would lead us to believe that fermentation does indeed increase SP content. And therefore FWG is likely higher in Sp content than regular WG. 

 

the study notes 

 

 

It should be noted that fermented foods which use soybeans as a starting material are relatively rich in polyamines. This is probably due to the fact that soybeans contain relatively large amounts of polyamines and also that soybeans are rich in proteins (40--50%) compared with other representative fermentation materials like wheat or rice (8-13% and 6-9%, respectively), which are hydrolyzed to form amino acids, the precursor of polyamines, through the fermentation process. 10) Another reason may be that the production of soy sauce and miso requires a complicated process with many kinds of microorganisms and a long maturation period, which result in the presence of various amino acid decarboxylase-producing bacteria in the fermentation mixture and allows sufficient time for enzymatic reactions to occur. This may also be the case for Japanese sake which contained a large amount of agmatine.

 

so going by the numbers in that study a stir fry with shitake, soy sauce (double fermented if possible), rice, corn, spinach, peas, and tempeh, would be quite high in SP. Drink some green tea with that stir fry and you will have consumed plenty of SP. 

Edited by Phoebus, 18 May 2021 - 02:07 AM.

[smithx]

Spermidine is apparently HAZMAT and is caustic and burns skin?!? See this MSDS from Beantown Chemical:

https://s3.amazonaws...town/215885.pdf

 

They charge $75 for 5g which seems reasonable, but I'm curious how best to handle and dispense it. Thinking of taking about 25mg/d to start with based on that amount being found in some Mediterranean diets (and any suggestions about that would also be welcome).

 

 

[aribadabar]

Spermidine is apparently HAZMAT and is caustic and burns skin?!? See this MSDS from Beantown Chemical:

https://s3.amazonaws...town/215885.pdf

 

They charge $75 for 5g which seems reasonable, but I'm curious how best to handle and dispense it. Thinking of taking about 25mg/d to start with based on that amount being found in some Mediterranean diets (and any suggestions about that would also be welcome).

 

Your post intrigued me and since I planned to INGEST spermidine, I decided , in the name of science, to test it first topically as I would not want something that caustic in my GI tract.

I put a drop of RPI spermidine (that I put off using for some time) on the back of my hand and let it stay there for ~15 min until it was more or less absorbed.

 

NO redness at all, and only ever perceptible tingling is all I can report from this experiment and that's straight/undiluted spermidine. Diluting it in water/ethanol at 25 mg/ml should be a non-issue as far as corrosiveness is concerned.

In other words, that MSDS info is WILDLY overblown.

[Woody42]

In this article about polyamines they compare the level of different polyaminines in seeds,sprouts and micro greens.

For example in lentils the seeds contain 101 mg per kilo,  sprouts 132 per kilo and micro greens 579 mg per kilo but

I am assuming that the 132 mg per kilo for sprouts isn't from 1 kilo of sprouts but the sprouts harvested from sprouting

1 kilo of seeds.  And that 579 mg for the microgreens would be from the total harvested from  1k of seeds.   

 

 

   https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/32369919/                                        

[Phoebus]

new study out 

 

 

 

The autophagy inducer spermidine protects against metabolic dysfunction during overnutrition

Chen-Yu Liao, PhD, Oona M P Kummert, HSD, Amanda M Bair, BS, Nora Alavi, HSD, Josef Alavi, BS, Delana M Miller, BS, Isha Bagga, BS, Anja M Schempf, BS, Yueh-Mei Hsu, PhD, Bruce D Woods II, BS ... Show more

The Journals of Gerontology: Series A, glab145, https://doi.org/10.1093/gerona/glab145

Published:

 

01 June 2021

 Article history

 

 

Abstract

Autophagy, a process catabolizing intracellular components to maintain energy homeostasis, impacts aging and metabolism. Spermidine, a natural polyamine and autophagy activator, extends lifespan across a variety of species, including mice. In addition to protecting cardiac and liver tissue, spermidine also affects adipose tissue through unexplored mechanisms. Here, we examined spermidine in the links between autophagy and systemic metabolism. Consistently, daily injection of spermidine delivered even at late life is sufficient to cause a trend in lifespan extension in wild type mice. We further found that spermidine has minimal metabolic effects in young and old mice under normal nutrition. However, spermidine counteracts HFD (high-fat diet)-induced obesity by increasing lipolysis in visceral fat. Mechanistically, spermidine increases the hepatokine FGF21 expression in liver without reducing food intake. Spermidine also modulates FGF21 in adipose tissues, elevating FGF21 expression in subcutaneous fat, but reducing it in visceral fat. Despite this, FGF21 is not required for spermidine action, since Fgf21  -/- mice were still protected from HFD. Furthermore, the enhanced lipolysis by spermidine was also independent of autophagy in adipose tissue, given that adipose-specific autophagy deficient (Beclin-1  flox/+  Fabp4-cre) mice remained spermidine-responsive under HFD. Our results suggest that the metabolic effects of spermidine occurs through systemic changes in metabolism, involving multiple mechanistic pathways.

 

Edited by Phoebus, 02 June 2021 - 12:27 PM.

[Woody42]

I  am thinking about doing a couple of 5 day fast and would like to use some spermidine when doing it.

I know RPI sells 5G of it for $112.79  but don't want to buy that much right now anyone know where I could 

just buy 1G of it in the USA  of it or willing to sell me just 1G. ?

  

[Woody42]

True this is a mouse study but I did find it interesting.

 

 

 

 

 https://journals.phy...nalCode=ajplung

 

[Harkijn]

Until now the consensus on wheatgerm was that it is not heatsensive. There is some doubt about that now.

https://www.longecit...e-2#entry907285

 

Thanks to elc202 for noticing this one.

[smithx]

I obtained 5g of spermidine free base from a chemical company, and the COA indicates actual purity at 99.8%

 

Question: does anyone know what the impurities are likely to be, based on knowledge of how it is commercially synthesized?

 

Not sure if I should actually consume the stuff or not.

 

 

 

[steven acoca]

Its as good as youll ever get so if you arent comfortable with 99.8% i can asure you many supplements dont have that standard

[TMNMK]

I mixed 5g 99% Spermidine into about 43ml distilled water, so the total volume is about 50ml. It disperses well. I'm keeping it in a dropper bottle in the fridge. It's about 5mg/drop.

 

I'm taking 20mg per day for the last couple days. I haven't noticed anything, and I don't expect to. I'll stay at this dose for a week or so before increasing it.

 

Yeah, similarly I gently heat to get above mp enough for about 1ml draw into 9ml dH2O for total solution volume of 10ml which gives ~4.6mg / drop. The original stored in freezer -5c under argon (I've read -20c, but freezer is likely fine). The aliquot in fridge for a little under 2 months, squeezing out those 3-4 drops giving ~14-19mg / serving, which I'm still trying to figure out how to disguise the taste of properly. 

[ta5]

This doesn't sound good, but I don't really understand it:

 

Amino Acids. 2021 Sep 21.

Functional roles of polyamines and their metabolite acrolein in eukaryotic cells

Kazuei Igarashi, Keiko Kashiwagi

Among low molecular weight substances, polyamines (spermidine, spermine and their precursor putrescine) are present in eukaryotic cells at the mM level together with ATP and glutathione. It is expected therefore that polyamines play important roles in cell proliferation and viability. Polyamines mainly exist as a polyamine-RNA complex and regulate protein synthesis. It was found that polyamines enhance translation from inefficient mRNAs. The detailed mechanisms of polyamine stimulation of specific kinds of protein syntheses and the physiological functions of these proteins are described in this review. Spermine is metabolized into acrolein (CH2 = CH-CHO) and hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) by spermine oxidase. Although it is thought that cell damage is mainly caused by reactive oxygen species (O2-, H2O2, and •OH), it was found that acrolein is much more toxic than H2O2. Accordingly, the level of acrolein produced becomes a useful biomarker for several tissue-damage diseases like brain stroke. Thus, the mechanisms of cell toxicity caused by acrolein are described in this review.

PMID: 34546444

[APBT]

Here's a source for Spermidine 3HCL in powder form:  https://botany.bio/p...uct-description

[smithx]

It turns out that this Align supplement:

https://www.alignpro...-immune-support

contains BB-12, which is the same as LKM512, which produces spermidine in the gut.

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/28784510/

 

 

 Consumption effect of a synbiotic beverage made from soy and yacon extracts containing Bifidobacterium animalis ssp. lactis BB-12 on the intestinal polyamine concentrations in elderly individuals

Abstract

This study aimed to investigate the effect of a synbiotic beverage made from soy and yacon (Smallanthus sonchifolius) extracts containing Bifidobacterium animalis ssp. lactis BB-12 on healthy elderly individuals' intestinal polyamine concentrations. A randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial has been conducted with twenty-nine volunteers (over 65years of age) who either had a daily intake of 150mL of synbiotic (synbiotic group - S) or placebo (placebo group - P) beverages. Both had the same nutrient composition, except that a probiotic culture was added to the synbiotic beverage. Total experiment time was 8weeks, which was divided into 3 consecutive phases: a prefeeding period (2weeks), followed by a feeding period (4weeks) and a postfeeding period (2weeks). Stool samples were collected at 3 time periods. Fecal concentrations of polyamines, putrescine (PUT), cadaverine (CAD) and spermidine (SPD) that were obtained during the synbiotic and placebo consumption period were significantly higher (p<0.05) than those found during the pre-consumption baseline level period. No significant differences in the number of bifidobacteria, clostridia, or enterobacteria were observed in any of the two groups at the three time periods. Similarly, no significant effect on the production of proinflammatory cytokines tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-α), interleukin-6 (IL-6) and anti-inflammatory interleukin-10 (IL-10) was induced by the synbiotic or placebo beverages consumption. The results herein indicate that both the synbiotic and the placebo beverage consumption have increased polyamines levels, which are often reduced in elderly individuals, without influencing inflammatory responses. In addition, both placebo and synbiotic beverages seems to contribute by maintaining increased polyamines levels.

 

 

[Dallasboy]

Here's a source for Spermidine 3HCL in powder form:  https://botany.bio/p...uct-description

 

What would be the dosing for this?  Never heard of the 3HCL version.

[APBT]

What would be the dosing for this?  Never heard of the 3HCL version.

 

If you click on "suggested use," in the link, they list 5 mg orally. I have not used this product myself. 

[APBT]

Here's a product from RevGenetics for consideration; I have not used it. 

https://store.revgen...h-spermidine-rx

 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

The product linked to in post #170 claims "Yes, each capsule includes at least 1mg of natural spermidine"

 

The product linked to in post # 166 suggests 5mg once-a-day dosage.

 

From the looks of this chart, from this study, one could easily get at least 5mg/day of spermidine just by choosing the appropriate foods to include in your diet. Note that the chart values are for mg/kg (or mg/L for liquids) so, divide by 10 to get the spermidine content of a 100g portion, for example.

 

Adding an additional 1-5gms of spermidine that supplementation of the above products provide would also seem to be in the realm of being easily satisfied by appropriate choices of foods.

 

Which begs the question--is supplementation with commercial products containing spermidine really needed?

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 31 December 2021 - 10:43 PM.

[Gal220]

Which begs the question--is supplementation with commercial products containing spermidine really needed?

 

I went with Nate's wheat germ suggestion as well

 

https://www.longecit...ndpost&p=894677

[Harkijn]

Yes and of course mushrooms! See also Michael Lustgarten's video( on this website and Youtube.)

[Gal220]

Anyone adding anything to the wheatgerm mix?  Im taking with hespirdin and EGCG also - link

 

 

"Hesperidin may protect against diabetes and its complications, partly through activation of the AMPK signaling pathway."

 

Edited by Gal220, 03 January 2022 - 06:48 AM.

[APBT]

Here's a soon to be released LIPO spermidine product by Renue By Science (formerly Alive By Science):  https://renuebyscien...somal-capsules/

[FrankEd]

Can spermidine rteverses atherosclerosis? Which dosage one must use to achieve this goal?

[ta5]

Here's a discussion on the Age Reversal Network:

Spermidine: a physiological autophagy inducer acting as an anti-aging vitamin inhumans?

They talk about this thread including me and my 100 mg dose. Eight months ago one guy wrote, "I just bought 500 g of Spermadine with the intention of using 10 g/d. I will report how it goes". And he confirmed it was indeed grams, not milligrams. I don't see a report back though.

 

I still take 100 mg/day. A few weeks back I ran out for 2 weeks, and when I got more I took 250 mg/day for a week. As usual, I didn't notice anything for sure.

 

This article talks about Spermidine and notes that intake levels in Spain are estimated to be around 15 mg/day:

Caloric Restriction Mimetics in Nutrition and Clinical Trials

[Anthony_Loera]

Just making sure you know how much spermadine

is in each capsule of RevGenetics Rapymine (90 Capsule bottle):

 

https://www.revgenet...h-spermidine-rx

 

 How much spermidine is in Rapymine.png   72.1KB   0 downloads

 

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 12 November 2022 - 03:47 PM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Re post #178 certificate of analysis. (CoA)

 

What constitutes the remaining 431.32 mg of the tested capsule's content?

 

If you are tempted to say "filler" (including binding agents, excipients, flow enhancers, etc.), please be specific, as some people are allergic to certain materials. Why is there no report in the CoA from MS Bioanalytical LLC of what the missing mass is made of?

 

Thanks

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

Eight months ago one guy wrote, "I just bought 500 g of Spermadine with the intention of using 10 g/d. I will report how it goes". And he confirmed it was indeed grams, not milligrams. I don't see a report back though.

 

 

 

I expect you won't see any more reports, given that the biological half life of spermidine is around 4 days (in rats). Ten grams a day would thus become toxic very quickly. In mice, the LD50 has been measured at 870 mg/kg.