182 replies to this topic

[mikey]

That's weird. For a while they had a different rule for stuff going through Amazon, and now the rule seems to be that they will pretend they can't sell it to you. If they really cut people off, that will be too bad. Not for me, especially, as I stocked up a while back.  I can't take resveratrol without spermidine, which totally eliminates the joint pain I'd otherwise get, and resveratrol is great as a senolytic.

 

Interesting to hear. Are you taking it as a diluted 10 mg in juice three times a week or do you follow a different dosing protocol?

 

Thank you!

[Turnbuckle]

Interesting to hear. Are you taking it as a diluted 10 mg in juice three times a week or do you follow a different dosing protocol?

 

Thank you!

 

I use 50 mg in conjunction with resveratrol, which I use once a week or two with a senolytic protocol that includes N+R, cucurmin, and sodium butyrate.

[ta5]

When I dissolve the pure Spermidine in distilled water, why does it get super hot?

 

I just mixed 25g Spermidine in about 25ml of water (I don't know exactly - it was enough water to make the total volume 50ml) and it got almost too hot to touch. Not quite, but seriously warm. I was afraid if it kept getting hotter, it might melt the Nalgene bottle I put it in.

 

This happened the past two times I mixed it too, so it's nothing unusual about this time. But, I thought I would mention it this time and see if anyone here knows.

[Nate-2004]

Guys, 4 tbsp of raw wheat germ (red mill brand in the US available on Amazon) will give you roughly 5 to 10mg of spermidine. I mix this in with my flax/turmeric/beet root shakes when I'm in a NAD+ boosting cycle.

[Turnbuckle]

When I dissolve the pure Spermidine in distilled water, why does it get super hot?

 

I just mixed 25g Spermidine in about 25ml of water (I don't know exactly - it was enough water to make the total volume 50ml) and it got almost too hot to touch. Not quite, but seriously warm. I was afraid if it kept getting hotter, it might melt the Nalgene bottle I put it in.

 

This happened the past two times I mixed it too, so it's nothing unusual about this time. But, I thought I would mention it this time and see if anyone here knows.

 

It's the enthalpy of mixing. Some substances become colder when mixed (as with cold packs), some hotter. Sulfuric acid and water can become dangerously hot. I normally store spermidine in the fridge at a 10% dilution in water, then dilute it further in fruit juice for use. It appears to last indefinitely.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 28 June 2020 - 08:47 PM.

[JamesPaul]

spermidineLIFE Spermidine-Rich Dietary Supplement is $109 for one month's supply on amazon.

 

Primeadine is currently $60 per month's supply on https://www.primeadi...s/buyspermidine

 

One day's serving is about 800 mg of wheat germ extract and about 1 mg spermidine in both of the above products.

 

If you get can RPI Research Products to ship spermidine to you, well, good for you.  The cost per 1-mg serving would be minuscule, between 2 cents and 3 cents.

Edited by JamesPaul, 08 November 2020 - 04:22 PM.

[experimenting]

https://spermidineli...vity-supplement

This is expensive, but doesn’t this work?

[zorba990]

I still see it on Amazon at 5 G :
RPI Spermidine Free Base Powder, 5 Grams, 99% Purity, for Molecular Biology
Price: $112.79 & FREE Shipping

Your link may vary. 5 G in one ounce dropper bottle of water would yield a little less than 8.5 mg per drop in my calculations with 590 drops in a bottle.
Not sure if something other than water would be better there.

How long it would last in that water I don't know. I would expect packaged supplements to be 4-8x that price since that is what is needed to generally make money off a markup.
However it's much more than that currently. Interesting about the heat reaction -- could be less than good in the stomach if trying to load that into pills ouch!

[JamesPaul]

Yes, RFI Products advertises on amazon.com.  But their ad says "Product is sold for research or further manufacturing use only, not for food or drug use."  Someone posted that they would not ship to a residential address.

[Gal220]

spermidineLIFE Spermidine-Rich Dietary Supplement is $109 for one month's supply on amazon.

 

Primeadine is currently $60 per month's supply on https://www.primeadi...s/buyspermidine

 

One day's serving is about 800 mg of wheat germ extract and about 1 mg spermidine in both of the above products.

 

If you get can RPI Research Products to ship spermidine to you, well, good for you.  The cost per 1-mg serving would be minuscule, between 2 cents and 3 cents.

 

 Not a believer in the red mill wheat germ Nate mentioned?

[JamesPaul]

 Not a believer in the red mill wheat germ Nate mentioned?

Now that you mention it, I could eat 1 Tbsp. wheat germ per day.  Thanks.

 

wikipedia says wheat germ has 243 mg spermidine per kg of wheat germ.  1 US tablespoon of wheat germ weighs 0.0114 pound = 0.00518 kg.  So 1 US Tbsp of wheat germ contains 243 * 0.00518 = 1.26 mg spermidine.  OK, I'm convinced.

 

Actually this site

https://www.foodbev....midine-content/

says

"GoodMills Innovation claims its SpermidinEvo provides six times the spermidine content of conventional wheat germs."

so I might see if I can find that.

[Gal220]

Now that you mention it, I could eat 1 Tbsp. wheat germ per day.  Thanks.

 

wikipedia says wheat germ has 243 mg spermidine per kg of wheat germ.  1 US tablespoon of wheat germ weighs 0.0114 pound = 0.00518 kg.  So 1 US Tbsp of wheat germ contains 243 * 0.00518 = 1.26 mg spermidine.  OK, I'm convinced.

 

Actually this site

https://www.foodbev....midine-content/

says

"GoodMills Innovation claims its SpermidinEvo provides six times the spermidine content of conventional wheat germs."

so I might see if I can find that.

 

I read about the EVO product as well, several websites covered it back in July, I cant find anyone selling it though.  The product that is being sold, has 1 mg per cap, and quite pricey. $110 for one month supply(taking 2 caps a day).

[zorba990]

It's the enthalpy of mixing. Some substances become colder when mixed (as with cold packs), some hotter. Sulfuric acid and water can become dangerously hot. I normally store spermidine in the fridge at a 10% dilution in water, then dilute it further in fruit juice for use. It appears to last indefinitely.

I mixed 5 G with 1 ounce water and I noticed no such reaction. I had to shake it quite a bit to get it to dissolve as it was rather stuck to the bottom of the container. I notice only a slight smell and no taste whatsoever. I plan to use 8mg with 500mg resveratrol

[Gal220]

My wheat germ arrived, hopefully the watermelon flavor is a good sign.

[Guest]

.

Edited by Guest, 26 January 2021 - 05:59 AM.

[Guest]

The problem here comes with the amounts. In the regular experiments for the lifespan(like here: https://www.nature.c...rticles/nm.4222 ), the amount given to mice is 0.3 mM/Liter. If we suppose a mice drinks on average 15ml/100g of body weight a day and also that they are drinking the same as usual in the experiments(a typical problem with mice):

 

0.3mM/L * 15 ml/100g = 4.5 * 10^-5 M/kg
Spermidine has 145.25 g/M, so if the same proportion is applied to humans:

145.25 g/M * 0.3 * 15 * 10^-5 M/kg = 6.54 mg/kg

 

So for a 90kg weight person, this means

588 mg a day of Spermidine.

 

Which on regular basis, using the tables means you will need to eat 2kg of the wheat germ a day...so it has to be supplemented. And because of the prices, you will spend around 6$ a day for Spermidine supplementing.

 

Just to emphasize this calculation:

 

the study actually did use 3 mM for the lifespan part in older mice from 18 month of age; only mice from birth got 0,3 mM

 

 

The other lifespan study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5489339/

 

also used 3 mM - not 0,3 mM as in the calulcation above

 

 

Even with allometric scaling for humans this results in 400 mg to 600 mg of Spermidine intake per day to replicate the mice results.

[ta5]

Here's something neat:

 

Cell Biochem Funct. 2021 Jan 25. 

Spermidine promotes melanin production through an MITF signalling pathway

Seong-Hee Kang  1 , Moon-Moo Kim  1

Melanin plays an important role in determining skin colour. Apoptosis of melanocytes and defect in melanin production cause vitiligo. Various studies have been conducted to treat the disease, but its treatment is still difficult. Therefore, this study aimed to investigate the effect of spermidine, which is known as an inhibitor of ageing-related oxidized proteins, on melanogenesis. Even though spermidine above 50 μM had no effect on antioxidant activity and DOPA oxidation, it displayed tyrosinase activity. However, spermidine at 2000 μM was cytotoxic in B16F1 cells using MTT assay. Spermidine above 125 μM decreased the amount of intracellular hydrogen peroxide in a concentration-dependent manner in DCFH-DA analysis. It was also found that spermidine above 2000 μM increased melanin synthesis in living cells. However, spermidine above 1000 μM increased melanin synthesis in a concentration-dependent manner in H2 O2 -treated B16F1 cells. Furthermore, spermidine enhanced the expression of tyrosine hydroxylase via MITF transcription factor involved in melanogenesis in H2 O2 -treated B16F1 cells. Therefore, these results suggest that spermidine could be applied as a potential stimulator of melanin synthesis for the prevention of hair greying.

PMID: 33496030

 

I've been taking 100mg/day for a little over a year. Maybe I'll up my dose. 

[TMNMK]

 

I've been taking 100mg/day for a little over a year. Maybe I'll up my dose. 

 

 

100mg of 99% spermidine trihydrochloride from a chem supplier or 100mg calculated based on grams of wheat germ or wheat germ extract? Just curious from a NOAEL perspective, I know it's considered GRAS and I'm pretty sure no upper limit has been established yet. But due to the source I feel it may be an important question - whether the spermidine you take is a pure individual component or whether it is part of a matrix. 

 

Nevermind, I just read up in the thread and you said: "When I dissolve the pure Spermidine in distilled water, why does it get super hot?" so, that answers it gtk thank you for trying first!

Edited by TMNMK, 23 April 2021 - 08:37 PM.

[Phoebus]

 

 

 

I've been taking 100mg/day for a little over a year. Maybe I'll up my dose. 

 

 

 

And how is it going? 

 

Notice any dramatic health benefits? 

[zorba990]

And how is it going?

Notice any dramatic health benefits?

Wow. Even 8mg seems to really irritate my stomach so I haven't been able to use much of what I bought (5 G RHI diluted in water to make 8mg per drop). I'l have to try again at some point...

[JamesPaul]

In this podcast, Natalie Niddam interviews Amy LaMottte on spermidine and other polyamides.  

“Amy Lamotte on the Anti aging Effects of Spermidine Part 2”

 

https://open.spotify...D8eGGI3dryjeaiI

 

Amy cited some surprising benefits of spermidine even at very low doses.  Associational studies show improved reduced mortality, lower blood pressure, and lower incidence of cardiovascular disease.  Amy found that it Improved her heart rate variability, but that result may not apply to other people.  In one associational study, increased intake of spermidine was associated with increased cortical thickness and larger volume of the hippocampus.  In a 2018 clinical trial, subjects who ingested 1.2 mg of spermidine daily for 90 days had improvements in memory test performance.  Surprising, considering that, according to Amy, the average American diet contains 8 mg/day and the average European diet contains 13 mg/day.

 

Either Nat or Amy said that the EU says that 6 mg/day (presumably as a supplement on top of diet, though not stated) is safe.  Probably best to spread it out and take it with meals.

 

A discount of 15% for Primeadine using code BIONAT15 or bionat15.  Of course wheat germ may be cheaper.

Edited by JamesPaul, 23 April 2021 - 09:54 PM.

[TMNMK]

That's a good episode, thanks for sharing. I think referenced are some of the studies also mentioned here: https://science.scie...an2788.full.pdf

 

(article is mind-blowing imho!)

Edited by TMNMK, 24 April 2021 - 11:18 PM.

[ta5]

And how is it going? 

 

Notice any dramatic health benefits? 

 

I still take 4 x 25mg/day. I was too chicken to use more.

I haven't noticed anything.

 

Here's some recent article titles (and some not so recent ones that were maybe posted already):

 

eIF5A hypusination, boosted by dietary spermidine, protects from premature brain aging and mitochondrial dysfunction

Cell Rep. 2021 Apr 13;35(2):108941. 

 

Dietary spermidine improves cognitive function

Cell Rep. 2021 Apr 13;35(2):108985. 

 

Spermidine Attenuates Oxidative Stress-Induced Apoptosis via Blocking Ca 2+ Overload in Retinal Pigment Epithelial Cells Independently of ROS

Int J Mol Sci. 2021 Jan 29;22(3):1361. 

 

Health-Promoting Effects of Dietary Polyamines

Med Sci (Basel). 2021 Feb 5;9(1):8. 

 

Protection of nuclear DNA by lifespan-extending compounds in the yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae

Mutat Res. 2021 Jan 30;822:111738. 

 

Dietary Polyamines Intake and Risk of Colorectal Cancer: A Case-Control Study

Nutrients. 2020 Nov 22;12(11):E3575.

 

Spermidine improves gut barrier integrity and gut microbiota function in diet-induced obese mice
Gut Microbes. 2020 Nov 9;12(1):1-19. 
 

Mitochondrial Quality Control in the Heart: New Drug Targets for Cardiovascular Disease

Korean Circ J. 2020 May;50(5):395-405.

 

Spermidine alleviates cardiac aging by improving mitochondrial biogenesis and function

Aging (Albany NY). 2020 Jan 6;11.

 

Spermidine Exhibits Protective Effects Against Traumatic Brain Injury

Cell Mol Neurobiol. 2020 Jan 8. 

 

Spermidine in dementia : Relation to age and memory performance

Wien Klin Wochenschr. 2019 Dec 12.

[JR7]

I still take 4 x 25mg/day. I was too chicken to use more.

I haven't noticed anything.

 

 

If you don't mind me asking, how do you supplement 25mg? Is there a nutraceutical that provides this high of a dose? 

Thanks! 

 

Update: I read further up and saw your protocol. Please disregard. Thank you 

Edited by JR7, 26 April 2021 - 11:50 AM.

[Woody42]

Back to post 141  where it mentions that even in a diet containing 13mg of spermidine  an extra 6mg as a supplements adds health benefits

and some studies using a token 1.2 mg as a supplement  also found  health benefits why not just take a table spoon of  wheat germ  or 1/2oz

of aged cheddar cheese?   

 

Lentil's are also a good source of spermidine.  I tend to recall they have about 200mg per kilo of dried beans  sprouting  them causes the spermidine 

content to rise about 15% .

 

 

[dudmuck]

Back to post 141  where it mentions that even in a diet containing 13mg of spermidine  an extra 6mg as a supplements adds health benefits

and some studies using a token 1.2 mg as a supplement  also found  health benefits why not just take a table spoon of  wheat germ  or 1/2oz

of aged cheddar cheese?   

 

Lentil's are also a good source of spermidine.  I tend to recall they have about 200mg per kilo of dried beans  sprouting  them causes the spermidine 

content to rise about 15% .

Daniel Dietz from Longevity labs said,

“There are lots of wheat germ oils out there, but you can’t just eat a bag of wheat germ and have a substantive amount of spermidine content because there’s a process of oxidation that destroys the polyamines".

 

I would guess the only way to know is to test your wheat germ.

[Harkijn]

Not to scare anyone but there are still many uncertainties about safety of supplementing spermidine:

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/33845261/

 

I stick to wheatgerm and fermented vegetables for now.

[Kevnzworld]

Not to scare anyone but there are still many uncertainties about safety of supplementing spermidine:

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/33845261/

 

I stick to wheatgerm and fermented vegetables for now.

The dose in the study was 150 mg per kg.   Ridiculously high, Over 10G for an average human.  
I take approximately a tablespoon of wheat germ daily, providing about 5 mg of spermidine 

 

[TMNMK]

I don't know if it was mentioned yet, but there was some lighthearted discussion around spermidine and the difference between male and female lifespans. Lets just put that one to bed:

 

https://www.pnas.org...ent/117/15/8546

 

Just a little favor from me to all of the individuals attracted to the male of our species. Sorry guys

Edited by TMNMK, 12 May 2021 - 05:42 PM.

[JamesPaul]

The dose in the study was 150 mg per kg.   Ridiculously high, Over 10G for an average human.  
I take approximately a tablespoon of wheat germ daily, providing about 5 mg of spermidine 

 

wikipedia says wheat germ has 243 mg spermidine per kg of wheat germ, i.e., 243 milligrams per 1000 gm of wheat germ.

https://en.wikipedia...rmidine#Sources

 

1 US tablespoon of wheat germ weighs 5.19 grams.

https://www.howmany....tgerm--in--gram

 

So 1 US Tbsp of wheat germ contains 243 mg/(1000 gm) * 5.19 grams)= 1.26 mg spermidine.

 

Unless the source is richer in spermidine than the type cited in wikipedia.