25 replies to this topic

[Leon93]

Hi everyone,

 

I am relatively new to LongeCity. I know the site for a couple of months now and I made an account earlier today.
My question to everyone is why you are interested in supplements. I will share my reason why I ask this, especially to those who have been interested in it for longer. Might also be cool if you check out my supplement stack as well. If you don´t care about my intro, skip to ´--------->´

So, a little bit info about myself as this is my first serious post: I am 24 years old, I have had interest in all kinds of topics (hard, soft, earth, climate and social sciences, politics, psychology, religion, philosophy (ethics, logics, epistomology, purpose in life, history, retorics, singing, gaming, weightlifting) and I have had these about my entire life. When I wasn´t learning at college I was at home studying about these.
In 2016 I started my whole-food plant-based diet, a friend of mine told me it has a lot of benefits for health, earth´s environment and off course the animals.
I never have regret it, as I started to became more and more interested in nutrition. I learned a lot of sites like nutritionfacts.org, veganhealth.com, veganRD,  and a couple more (even YouTube channels like Cory McCarthy).

Then in the beginning of 2017, I slowly started to shift my focus to supplements. I came across this site called examine.com, which has a lot of info on it. In 2017 I hunted down about every single supplement on which I made an assessment to which I needed and which I didn´t. I have about all the essential ´vegan´ supllements like vit D, omega 3 algae, brazil nuts, iodine, b12, creatine, carnitine, beta alanine, taurine and even some non-essential others like glycine, hibiscus tea, amla, ashwagandha, tongkat ali, schizandra, andrographis, saw palmetto, ginseng (both korean and siberian), reishi, acai and even picrorhiza kurroa for my vitiligo.

I assumed I ´needed´ the non-essential supplements due to all the ´wonderful´ benefits being displayed by examine.com, how minor and unwell-researched some of them really are. I like to improve myself, make myself stronger, faster, smarter, better-looking etcetera. I spent months building a certain supplement stack, and I was happy every time when I could leave out a certain supplement, because I actually hate having a big long-term supplement stack. Less is more, I would say here. 
The stack I mentioned above was a result of reviewing a lot of sites like examine.com, selfhacked.com and WebMD. Even though it is not finished, it was good for the moment being.

Then, not too long ago, I stumbled upon LongeCity. I was really annoyed and stressed when I came to the conclusion some supplements like reishi and korean ginseng are most likely harmful (hepatitis and gyno/immune booster respectively). It was thanks to LongeCity however I added glycine as well (thanks to user Darryl´s wonderful explanation on this amino acid). 

 

---------> But then, when I woke up today, I looked around at my room. I saw all the different supplements I had and thought to myself: ´what the heck am I doing with my life? Seriously, am I just being crazy? Are these supplements all really worth it? How much hours, days, weeks, months or years are all these supplements really going to add to my life and is all the cost and obsession about it really worth it?´

I think the latter really speaks for it: the obsession. Next to the vitiligo I also suffer from OCD. It even became pretty severe when I became 21. I took rTMS-therapy for it, which most definitely helped. But I just realized the supplement-obsession might be a certain aspect of my illness.

So then I wondered, might some of the people on LongeCity have obsessive, perfectionistic personalities as well? Or perhaps they are ´anxiety-based´ people, having a fear of death or any other illness/bothersome trait? Or is it just a harmless, healthy genuine self-aware kind of interest?

And what some of the psyche-based reasons ever might be, what benefits do most of these supplements have anyway? And what about negative harmful side-effects? I have had a bad experience with consuming 10 grams of creatine for about 3 months: it thinned my hair and it hasn´t came back even though I took some saw palmetto.
When I look back at the non-essential supplements I listed above, I think pretty much all of them (except glycine, hibiscus, amla, ashwagandha) might be a waste of money. Half a gram isn´t going to make me a better person, my diet more likely is. My experience with most supplements is to notice no significant change in what they are meant to work for in the designated dose.

I also like to hear some honest commentary on my supplement stack. There are a couple of more I am (re-)considering about adding (ginkgo, black maca, chlorella, lemon balm, valerian (for OCD), astaxanthin, DHEA (longevity), melatonin, gotu kola (centella), pycnogenol, rhodiola rosea, devil´s claw (back pain), polypodium, bosweilia serrata and cissus for joint health, bacopa, CoQ10 and lavender.
I think most of it is just too much for me. Some ´peer-reviewing´ would really help me out here.

Many thanks,

Leon

[Oakman]

1st, all your links just go to another duplicate post on the forum, not your stack. Can you link again?

 

---------> But then, when I woke up today, I looked around at my room. I saw all the different supplements I had and thought to myself: ´what the heck am I doing with my life? Seriously, am I just being crazy? Are these supplements all really worth it? How much hours, days, weeks, months or years are all these supplements really going to add to my life and is all the cost and obsession about it really worth it?´
...

So then I wondered, might some of the people on LongeCity have obsessive, perfectionistic personalities as well? Or perhaps they are ´anxiety-based´ people, having a fear of death or any other illness/bothersome trait? Or is it just a harmless, healthy genuine self-aware kind of interest?

 

Well, I can say, and given all that you have written, "Welcome to the (healthy) obsession!"  If an opinion helps, I don't see anything wrong with what you have described. Unusual for such a young man, perhaps yes, but given your self-described personality and interests, totally understandable. 

 

I can tell you that I have had similar thoughts while staring at my supplement shelves, "Am I nuts, etc." But then I realize how much satisfaction I get from learning ever more about health in all aspects, biology and physiology, and struggling to understand research and studies relating to disease, rejuvenation, and life enhancement. Being of the personality type that wants to understand the "Why is it like this?" and then "How can I make it better?" of virtually everything, my own health and wellbeing is certainly of interest. 

 

And although I'm considerably older than you, and long before I found longecity, I used supplements pretty much always to some degree. However, in the last year since I discovered this place, Longecity's forums have expanded my knowledge enormously, and given me insight to appropriately use a wider range of DIY health protocols, including supplements.

 

As to whether it's all worth the effort, cost, and potential good/bad this knowledge can do? Well, the answer for me is simple. I can do nothing in particular, and assuredly end up like millions upon millions of humans on the face of the earth, i.e., oblivious to their fate, heading headlong in whatever direction life may deliver them. Or I can mount a calculated strategy against the odds, take a shot at doing better, living longer, and just perhaps live to celebrate my success.... or not. Time will tell.

 

So stay the course, would be my advice. You have little to nothing to lose, and lots to gain if you're good.

[Leon93]

Hi Oakman!

Thank you a lot for commenting! Well, everytime I use the word ´stack´, it automatically links to the other duplicate post, yes. This is done by the site itself, not by me.

My current stack is the one I described above: vit D, omega 3 algae, brazil nuts, iodine, b12, creatine, carnitine, beta alanine, taurine and even some non-essential others like glycine, hibiscus tea, amla, ashwagandha, tongkat ali, schizandra, andrographis, saw palmetto, ginseng (both korean and siberian), reishi, acai and even picrorhiza kurroa for my vitiligo.

I am not sure about all of these at the moment though. I might get rid of some of the non-essential ones.

Then there are a couple more supplements which I want to review again: ginkgo, black maca, chlorella, lemon balm, valerian (for OCD), astaxanthin, DHEA (longevity), melatonin, gotu kola (centella), pycnogenol, rhodiola rosea, devil´s claw (back pain), polypodium, bosweilia serrata and cissus for joint health, bacopa, CoQ10, glucosamine and lavender.

I guess you´re right about the obsession being healthy. What I find hard however is to make a personal assessment of all of these singular supplements. This will take a lot of time. 

It will cost some money off course. But the toughest question of all is: will they really benefit me?! Take astaxanthin for example, extremely high in antioxidants, but will it actually only give me a couple more hours to live? Taking and assessing each non-essential supplement is such tough work for me.

I have spent a lot of time on sites like examine.com and bought some supplements as a result. But to be honest, I felt not different at all after taking them. So I´m not too sure about buying more or just leave it as it is.

I bought these supplements as I felt like I should do it. I felt like these supplements are ´meant´ to be taken. Like they are part of a standard ´better superior human´ diet. I always looked up to heroes (yes I know it´s very childish) and I´d like to improve myself. 

Take a couple of proven cognition boosters like ginkgo biloba, panax ginseng, schisandra, rosea, gotu kola (centella), pycnogenol and perhaps lemon balm for example. Are the effects noticable? Do some of them give negative side-effects as I´m pretty sure panax and gotu kola do. Every day I eat some berries in perhaps a few 100 grams. Will these supplements give more noticable effects than the berries? I´m not sure.

Then again, I know a friend who said cissus gave really significant effects for joint health. It immediately subsided when he stopped taking it. Another supplement which gave a significant effect was maca (aphrodisiac). Creatine was also noticable, even though it caused my hair to thin. It´s a bit better now, but not fully as it was before. Might have to wait a bit longer as I only took saw palmetto about a month ago (to block DHT).
 

This is all especially hard to me because of my perfectionism and obsessive personality. On one hand I would just like to leave it all behind, but I can´t somehow stop myself from reading more into it just to be 100% sure. Even though it will probably take hundreds of hours.

Edited by Leon93, 18 December 2017 - 06:03 PM.

[sthira]

This is all especially hard to me because of my perfectionism and obsessive personality.

Then you're acquainted with Cronometer and documenting what you eat day in and out? That'll send you into a perfectionistic and obsessive upward whirl. Especially if you combine documenting diet with attempting to limit calories a-la-CR, combined with "optimal nutrition" and hitting RDA.

I've mostly given up on supplements unless they're actually supplementing something that's not covered by diet. But "what's not covered by diet" remains a moving target, I'm open to new research, but for now I trust RDA. The complexities of food chemistry for optimal nutrition seem more compelling than reductionism through indie supplements. And there are several exciting ideas in possible non-metabolism-tinkering based "aging" interventions: SENS and all their exciting offshoots, like senolytics. Then there's the CRISPR story, George Church's group, the NMN story... these seem like promises certain to change, fade in and out, remembered and forgotten again and again.

To me the most exciting advance seems like artificial intelligence's influence on biotechnology; others I respect disagree and think AI won't mean much for repair technology. The field is interesting because it's so young and undeveloped, yet it's as old as humanity itself, always we've sought the fountain of youth, and this building science affects everyone on earth.

Anyway, welcome to the fora!

Edited by sthira, 18 December 2017 - 06:45 PM.

[pamojja]

Then you're acquainted with Cronometer and documenting what you eat day in and out? That'll send you into a perfectionistic and obsessive upward whirl.

 

Actually Cronometer just confirmed it isn't possible by diet alone to get even to the RDA with some nutrients.

 

 

..but for now I trust RDA.

Then combining intake and lab testing confirmed the RDA terribly fails biochemical individuality. Point in case for example with Magnesium. Was getting about 600 mg/d from diet - 1.5 times the RDA - but only an additional 2 g/d of supplemented elemental Mg ceased severe muscle-cramps. Still did nothing for my deficient labs. Am therefore currently on Mg-sulfate IVs.

 

Having found out what I needed to know, I quit Cronometer again. There are supplements against OCD too..

 

 

The reason I got really deep into dieting and supplementing 9 years ago - before living from the experience that my body was able to heal itself from everything which came along without any remedies, turning out not to be true anymore once reaching 40 years of age - were serious chronic diseases, where standard of care couldn't change anything about (PAD, COPD, T2D).

 

You can read that experience and implementation here. Turned into a question of being able to life or not for me. And I now so much wished, to have had known at young age, what I learned trough my failing health now. So much could have been prevented with much less. As for example with basic supplementation.

 

 

 

[sthira]

Actually Cronometer just confirmed it isn't possible by diet alone to get even to the RDA with some nutrients.

I don't think I've ever met RDA through diet alone, and my highest (experimental) day was like 97%. But to hit that I had to eat stuff I normally don't eat. So why not supplement presumed deficiencies, which for me are the common yawns from the vegan tent.

Meanwhile, diving into the thickets of metabolism, who's to say that some chronic deficiency of one nutrient or another isn't just the deficiency that triggers the optimal? I don't really believe in silver bullets, but so many unknowns hide in the weeds. Cronometer isn't the end of dietary knowledge, it's an experiment, it's another tool, it's handy, it keeps me in habit, and can be fun to look back to read what I ate on 5 June 2014, for example.

Edited by sthira, 18 December 2017 - 09:20 PM.

[pamojja]

Meanwhile, diving into the thickets of metabolism, who's to say that some chronic deficiency of one nutrient or another isn't just the deficiency that triggers the optimal? I don't really believe in silver bullets, but so many unknowns hide in the weeds.

 

Disabling pain for example isn't optimal. Therefore the deficiency causing this neither. I say
 

[sthira]

Meanwhile, diving into the thickets of metabolism, who's to say that some chronic deficiency of one nutrient or another isn't just the deficiency that triggers the optimal? I don't really believe in silver bullets, but so many unknowns hide in the weeds.

Disabling pain for example isn't optimal. Therefore the deficiency causing this neither. I say

Sure, but that works the other direction, too, right? Too much of something or another? "Protein" might a macro example. Longo's investigations seem to suggest that people under "a certain age" eat "less protein"; then when they reach an older age they might consider possibly increasing protein. Who knows if that's true, and Longo himself acknowledges -- hey, this is premature science and it's all in process.

In your case, I'd say you did what you thought was best to solve problems unsolved by mainstream efforts. These worked for you, and you endorse them. Well, that's what this place is all about -- sharing insights and contributing ideas for the greater good. Thank you for your detailed protocol -- it wouldn't work for me but I'm different.

[gamesguru]

It's a type of novelty-seeking, and any attempt to make it seem nobler would be pure sophistry

 

But if we're talking about silver bullets, mine is magnesium.  it's even metal!!

[Leon93]

@sthira and pamojja

Yes, I am aware of chronometer. I already have ´perfectionized´ my diet as much as I am aware:
- At least a pound of vegetables every day (mostly cruciferous and green leafy). I eat very diverse, sometimes it´s even 2 pounds or 3! I often blend it to increase absorption.
- At least 1 pound of fruitblend. Also sometimes 2 or 3 pounds. I always add some berries. Mostly apples, kiwi´s, mango´s, pears, grapefruits or any other fruit I can find.
- About 300 grams of legumes. Mostly roasted soy beans, black beans and red lentils. But any other bean, lentil or pea will do. Roasted soy beans as it is very high in protein (36-39g per 100g) and I have weightlifting endeavours.
- 150g grains. Mostly oatmeal, wheat germ/bran.
- Nuts and seeds. Peanuts, walnuts, pumpkin seeds, flax seeds or any other kind. Walnuts and flax seeds for omega 3s.
And then I often add some sweet potatoes, dates or even things like popcorn as a staple or snack. 
I also add high antioxdiants spices like turmeric, cloves and sumac. And many more just for the taste.

I added this at chronometer and it was sufficient for all my needs. I can even shoot up to 135 grams of protein if I want to, fully whole-food plant-based. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy! 

And to pamojja, I had the same. Sometimes I wish I knew some things earlier as well, but... I think my suffering also had to do with my greed. You know, there were times when I was afraid to live forever, and there were times I was afraid to die. They are both equal and silly at the same time. 

Edited by Leon93, 19 December 2017 - 03:22 PM.

[sthira]

Your diet sounds amazingly healthy. If you're able to sustain that goodness for the long haul, I'd say what else can you do? Before every meal: what's the healthiest food I can put into my body right now? And COM serves as a sort of rough guide into the internal wilderness of metabolism.

You could experiment with slowly dropping calories -- today by 2%, next week by 3%... -- because -- after all the shrill noise -- CR is still king.

(Um, except CR seems unlikely to extend lifespan in humans, whoopsie). CR extends LS in rodents, though, and in nearly every other species except humans, such is life. But at least CR(on) is cheaper and unproven, as opposed to supplements that are pricey and unproven.

[Leon93]

Wow thank you a lot! I wanted to reply earlier but I can only post 5 comments a day! 

So even you are not sure what else I can do or add at the moment? Perhaps probiotics/prebiotics? Because I wondered if you would have any more tips for me. You already mentioned CR, but then you also commented it hasn´t been shown to increase LS in humans. I´m pretty sure this will remain my lifestyle for the rest of my life. When I used chronometer before, I was able to actually hit all the RDA´s, believe it or not. I remember I only did not hit the choline mark, but that one is pretty unfounded. 170mg might be sufficient. I tend to hit about 300mg least, and I eat sufficient betaine besides it anyway (which there is evidence for to lower RDA for choline). There was too much folate, manganese and niacin too, but those are water soluble so excess should be lost easily. I had to drop nutritional yeast however, as I figured out it and funghi in general worsened my vitiligo. I also stopped taking in olive oils and other kinds of oils.

You mentioned SENS, CRISPR, George Church, MNM and that you only supplement which isn´t covered by diet. Could you share what these supplements/herbs/spices are or provide a link to a page where I can read about it? I read about all kinds of supplements which can increase LS like niacin, metformin, glycine, glucosamine and the list goes on and on... 
I found a link you´ve probably already read sometime else, which is about all kinds of supplements which might increase LS: https://selfhacked.c...rease-lifespan/. Perhaps there are a few more supplements/herbs/spices or even diet strategies like intermittent fasting you forgot to mention? Or perhaps all these supplements are bs, even though some of them have been experimented on humans with positive results. 

I made a post yesterday about known negative side-effects of different kinds of supplements/herbs/spices. Please add anything you know of: http://www.longecity...pices/?p=836295

Edited by Leon93, 20 December 2017 - 04:51 PM.

[sthira]

So even you are not sure what else I can do or add at the moment? Perhaps probiotics/prebiotics?

I think if you can keep eating the healthy plant-based diet you listed above then you'll probably maintain a pretty healthy microbiome. Gut bacteria science seems promising, but it's new.

Fwiw, for prebiotics, since I like the taste and texture of Jerusalem artichokes -- they're cheap since few people here care about them. Other dietary prebiotics that may be beneficial are raw chicory root, dandelion greens, garlic, leeks, raw or cooked onions, raw jicama, asparagus, wheat bran...

For probiotics sauerkraut, non-dairy kefir, kimchi, cooled off sweet potatoes... Rhonda Patrick pitched VSL#3 to us on a podcast but I can't afford it. Anyway, kiwi feed mucin. Beneficial bacteria appear to thrive on fiber. Bifidobacteria and Lactobacilli like fructans, especially inulin. Inulin is in green bananas, onions, garlic, asparagus, J. artichokes, leeks, asparagus, barley, rye... And if you're into akkermansia then maybe eat more pomegranates, or take a pill, maybe increase glutamine, take N-acetyl-D-glucosamine. We're in the weeds here, man.

Generally I tend to get lost in supplement nonsense; so my decisions branch out of a whole plant based diet that's high in prebiotic fermentable fiber and hormetic polyphenols. I try to stay low in methionine, it's not possible, prob not advisable either (to eliminate methionine completely from diet).

Glycine may be helpful on some nights for sleep. Sometimes I take andrographis, sometimes glucosamine, sometimes K2mk7, vitamin D. It all depends. I'm also mostly vegan so I take B12 (cyanocobalamin) sometimes extra zinc, beta alanine, taurine, carnitine, carnosine, occasional algal oil (DHA & EPA), I eat laver (nori) for iodine (not too much...)

You already mentioned CR, but then you also commented it hasn´t been shown to increase LS in humans. I´m pretty sure this will remain my lifestyle for the rest of my life.

I look at CR(on) (and maybe taking low dose rapamycin, too) as limited ways to (hopefully) keep my shit healthy until better solutions become available. I mean, CR (or fasting or rapamycin or metformin...) just ain't gonna to save us. Watch Aubrey De Gray talk about metabolism on YT and that should convince anyone that "tinkering with metabolism" isn't gonna work.

For the longer lives that we all want biotechnologies developed to effectively, inexpensively remove, repair, replace, or render harmless all the damages caused by living our lives. SENS -- it's a bright direction. And first into spotlight may be senolytic substances to remove accumulated zombie cells. Dasatinib and Quercetin we learned about; better compounds will arrive, and the sooner the better. Until solutions to aging using genuine repair tech arrives -- not just these educated-supplement-regimes -- the sooner more lives will be spared from aging right on schedule.

[Kinesis]

The main suggestion I would have regarding your stack would be to add a high quality multi-vitamin-mineral supplement. Think of it as the foundation you build the rest of your stack on; insurance that you won’t be deficient in any essential nutrient.

[sthira]

...any essential nutrient.

I'm not being provocative I promise, but the known essential nutrient count is rather limited, isn't it, and always seemingly swirling around in various incomplete and hotly debated stages of pre-science. And "essential" at which life stage? What if what's essential today isn't essential next decade, or whenever? I guess that's why reductionism just doesn't cut it to base very many foundational behaviors upon: "more study required..."

Meanwhile, whole plant foods, yadda yadda, eat them because the food matrix contains essentials and non-essentials that haven't even been identified yet, bla blah blah.... Much less have those been yet crowned with golden powers of longevity enhancement for healthy humans.

[Leon93]

@sthira
Thank you for the foods. I eat most of them if not all already.

Earlier today I noticed nutritionfacts.org has a relatively new video on why probiotics supplementation is a bad idea, haven´t watched it yet though.

I know glutamine inhibits protein synthesis, is not a bad thing per se but not good for building muscle. Will look into it.

I agree to get lost in supplements. It´s a lot of info, and I´m actually really bothered by it due to my obsessive perfectionism. I now found info about a lot of supplements which might extend LS: PQQ, NMN, NR, resveratrol, MitoQ, SkQ, NAD, SOD, DHEA.are some, even though many of them, if not all have only had some succes in rodent models.

Currently I have glucosamine sulphate at home, do you think I should sell it for NAD glucosamine or just take it? I thought there are some studies it activates autophagy, which is good for LS in theory. I have only looked a little bit into rapamycin until now. It does shut down the immune system though but it does inhibit TOR, which is also good for LS in theory.

You say you´re mostly vegan, is there a particular healthwise reason for it? And you mentioned carnosine when you already take in beta-alanine, didn´t you meant creatine? 

I just stumbled upon some info quercetin supplementation might not be a good idea on selfhacked.com; it probably has some toxic effects on neuro and raises homocysteine levels, also impairs cognition in mice. 

@kinesis, thank you for the advice, but I´ll pass. I already meet all the RDA´s from my diet, and multivitamins have been shown to increase prostate and breast cancer: https://nutritionfac.../multivitamins/

[Leon93]

@pamojja

About the OCD: valerian, NAC and inositol all seem promising. I dont recommend inositol however: 
- I found a study in which testosterone levels of males were raised on a supplement containing inositol amongst others (1g myo-inositol, 30 mg L-carnitine, L-arginine and vitamin E, 55 μg selenium, and 200 μg folic acid (Andrositol)): https://www.hindawi....e/2016/1674950/. They discussed it might have had anything to do with high ROS levels. Do note however the men had an average BMI of 28, higher-than-reference SHBG levels, and low total and lower-than-reference free testosterone levels: https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ije/2016/1674950/tab1/. Reference levels: http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/hrt_ref.htm
- I found a male claiming inositol caused his testosterone levels to drop immensely: www.soulcysters.net/showthread.php/351186-Has-anyone-measured-the-hormones-after-taking-myo-inositol
- Studies of women with PCOS in which inositol helped them, but also raised their estrogen levels and lowered testosterone: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19499845

So I still think inositol should be avoided for males. Im still looking into NAC and valerian at the moment. And Im not into noting the NLM/APA format style, too busy at the moment.
You can read more about it here: http://www.longecity...pices/?p=836295

And about the magnesium you take: it´s not needed. Just eat wheat bran/germ, pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, dark chocolate or powder/nibs form and some spices.

Edited by Leon93, 26 December 2017 - 05:08 PM.

[pamojja]

- I found a study in which testosterone levels of males were raised on a supplement containing inositol amongst others (1g myo-inositol, 30 mg L-carnitine, L-arginine and vitamin E, 55 μg selenium, and 200 μg folic acid (Andrositol)): https://www.hindawi....e/2016/1674950/.

 

That is a good example with the main problem with supplement studies: they only test the effect of  1 (or in this case 6 nutrients at low doses), and never comprehensive supplementation over many years. So that it really becomes worthless.

 

In my case 5 g/d of myo-inositol (together with comprehensive supplementation) raised total testosterone from the lowest of 185 ng/dl to it's highest of 646 (300-1000 normal range). Which of course doesn't tells anything about Inositol alone. But the synergistic effects of comprehensive supplementation.

 

 

 

And about the magnesium you take: it´s not needed. Just eat wheat bran/germ, pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, dark chocolate or powder/nibs form and some spices.

 

Again, I get already 630 mg Magnesium from diet alone. More isn't possible from diet.

And only an additional 2 g prevents most severe muscle-cramps. Which still together didn't improve my very deficient RBC-Mg levels the least during the last 9 years.

 

You don't seem to have any experience with lab testing and correcting severe nutrient deficiencies, for being able to make such a naive comment.

 

[Kinesis]

 

...any essential nutrient.

I'm not being provocative I promise, but the known essential nutrient count is rather limited, isn't it, and always seemingly swirling around in various incomplete and hotly debated stages of pre-science. And "essential" at which life stage? What if what's essential today isn't essential next decade, or whenever? I guess that's why reductionism just doesn't cut it to base very many foundational behaviors upon: "more study required..."

Meanwhile, whole plant foods, yadda yadda, eat them because the food matrix contains essentials and non-essentials that haven't even been identified yet, bla blah blah.... Much less have those been yet crowned with golden powers of longevity enhancement for healthy humans.

 

 

Sure, the known essential nutrient count is limited ... but that's just part of what makes a multiple practical.  If it weren't, the idea of a multiple wouldn't work ... you would put an unlimited number of nutrients in it?  And what does it have to do with "reductionism" ... the suggestion to take a multiple isn't rooted in philosophy; it's just practical health ... insurance that whatever may ail you, it's not going to be an easily avoided deficiency of a known essential nutrient.  And it's not clear what your point is about whole plant foods etcetera, because it's not as if anyone has suggested that taking a multiple is somehow an alternative to eating them. 

 

 

[pamojja]

In my case 5 g/d of myo-inositol (together with comprehensive supplementation) raised total testosterone from the lowest of 185 ng/dl to it's highest of 646 (300-1000 normal range). Which of course doesn't tells anything about Inositol alone. But the synergistic effects of comprehensive supplementation.

 

Actually quite interesting, if I plot various intakes with resulting average testosterone levels:

 

2011: 220 ng/dl ~ 0.7 g Inositol

2012: 262 ~ 1.6 g

2013: 320 ~ 3.1 g

2014: 340 ~ 7.2 g

2015: 351 ~  8 g

2016: 469 ~ 9.4 g

2017: 632 ~ 10 g

 

But then not really telling anything definitive again, since I also increased other vitamins, minerals and herbals during that time period.

[Leon93]

@pamojja
Yes it is quite interesting. I´m wondering now if inositol contains some hormone-modulating effects.

[pamojja]

I´m wondering now if inositol contains some hormone-modulating effects.

 

That's the real magic of natural nutrients compared to most pharmaceuticals, always having multiples beneficial effects on various bodily systems without major downsides (at least in my experience. Except the up-regulating of other nutrient's utilization and thereby possibly causing deficiencies - just asking to be corrected again). I know selfhacked.com is a bid liberal in throwing in maybe meaningless in-vitro and animal studies. Nevertheless, these too can give possible indications. For Inositol it mentions:

 

 

• Health Benefits of Myoinositol
  • 1) Myoinositol Treats Diabetes and its Complications
  • 2) Myo-inositol Improves the Outcome of PCOS
  • 3) Myo-inositol Prevents Metabolic Syndrome
  • 4) Myo-inositol Aids in Weight Loss
  • 5) Myoinositol Protects the Brain
  • 6) Inositol Increases Serotonin and GABA and May Promote Sleep
  • 7) Myoinositol is a Natural Remedy for Depression and Anxiety Disorders
  • 8) Myoinositol May Alleviate Psychiatric Disorders
  • 9) Myoinositol Ameliorates Eating Disorders
  • 10) Myoinositol Prevents Cancer
  • 11) Myoinositol Increases Fertility Rate
  • 12) Myoinositol Protects the Lungs
  • 13) Myoinositol May Prevent Heart Disease
  • 14) Myoinositol Helps with Prenatal Development
  • 15) Inositol Lowers Inflammation
  • 16) Myoinositol has Antioxidant Properties
  • 17) Inositol May Prolong Lifespan
  • 18) Myoinositol Mitigates Side Effects of Lithium
  • 19) Myoinositol Boosts Skin Health

Where I do see many possible downstream effects, which are known to alter androgens too. However, my no. of 1 is too much confounded by all other nutrients having a similar multitude of effects, and chronic diseases.

[sthira]

...any essential nutrient.

I'm not being provocative I promise, but the known essential nutrient count is rather limited, isn't it, and always seemingly swirling around in various incomplete and hotly debated stages of pre-science. And "essential" at which life stage? What if what's essential today isn't essential next decade, or whenever? I guess that's why reductionism just doesn't cut it to base very many foundational behaviors upon: "more study required..."

Meanwhile, whole plant foods, yadda yadda, eat them because the food matrix contains essentials and non-essentials that haven't even been identified yet, bla blah blah.... Much less have those been yet crowned with golden powers of longevity enhancement for healthy humans.

Sure, the known essential nutrient count is limited ... but that's just part of what makes a multiple practical. If it weren't, the idea of a multiple wouldn't work ... you would put an unlimited number of nutrients in it?

Maybe it's practical, maybe not. Swallowing a pill is certainly easy and convenient. But I question "the idea of a multiple" vitamin that works? By "work" you mean hitting RDA? I honestly don't know. But I've used Cronometer daily for several years, I'm 9-10% long term calorie restricted, I've bought the line that's optimal nutrition comes from food, I supplement Cronometer-indicated shortfalls. We should be under no delusion that chronic perfect diet will slow aging.

And what does it have to do with "reductionism" ... the suggestion to take a multiple isn't rooted in philosophy; it's just practical health ... insurance that whatever may ail you, it's not going to be an easily avoided deficiency of a known essential nutrient. And it's not clear what your point is about whole plant foods etcetera, because it's not as if anyone has suggested that taking a multiple is somehow an alternative to eating them.

"Insurance for whatever may ail you" is where I'm ignorant. In order to change my nutrition behavior to include insurance of multi-vitamins I need to see more solid clinical studies in healthy humans showing that taking X-supplement above and beyond RDA is indeed insurance and not detrimental, or wasted money.

Meanwhile, the US NIH has fact sheets on dietary supplements: ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/list-all/.

NIH also has a helpful online Dietary Supplement Label Database: www.dsld.nlm.nih.gov

[pamojja]

Maybe it's practical, maybe not. Swallowing a pill is certainly easy and convenient. But I question "the idea of a multiple" vitamin that works? By "work" you mean hitting RDA? I honestly don't know. But I've used Cronometer daily for several years, I'm 9-10% long term calorie restricted, I've bought the line that's optimal nutrition comes from food, I supplement Cronometer-indicated shortfalls. We should be under no delusion that chronic perfect diet will slow aging.

 

"Insurance for whatever may ail you" is where I'm ignorant. In order to change my nutrition behavior to include insurance of multi-vitamins I need to see more solid clinical studies in healthy humans showing that taking X-supplement above and beyond RDA is indeed insurance and not detrimental, or wasted money.

 

I understand you so well sthira, because I had that perspective too before my whole life. And since I know myself, I'm also sure nothing could convince you otherwise.

 

What finally convinced me were not any studies at all, but being confronted with a disabling chronic disease, where all invasive medical interventions wouldn't reverse it. Therefore, with nothing else to loose, I radically changed my diet and added increasingly mega-doses of nutrients and herbals (which will never really be studied conclusively, since they can't be patented and therefore the investments in incredibly expensive conclusive double-blind studies never retrieved again). And thereby was able to go in remission.

 

As already said, now I'm convinced that these same measures at a much less extensive level could have prevented some of my ailments or their severity, and regret not having given it more thoughts at a much younger age. Would indeed have been more 'convenient'.

But since we all are how we are, with all our prepositions, probably anyway will make the exact same mistake in the next life again. Despite, what I don't regret is having lived dreams. Nevertheless ruining my health thereby.

[Kinesis]

Maybe it's practical, maybe not.

There’s no maybe about it. It’s practical. Millions of people actually do it.
 

Swallowing a pill is certainly easy and convenient. But I question "the idea of a multiple" vitamin that works? By "work" you mean hitting RDA? I honestly don't know. But I've used Cronometer daily for several years, I'm 9-10% long term calorie restricted, I've bought the line that's optimal nutrition comes from food, I supplement Cronometer-indicated shortfalls. We should be under no delusion that chronic perfect diet will slow aging.

Since you introduced the "works" requirement I guess you know what you mean by it. I merely answered OP’s request for opinions on how he might improve his stack. If you read other things into it, like a suggestion that optimal nutrition doesn’t come from food, they’re figments of a debate you’re having with yourself, not with me.
 

"Insurance for whatever may ail you" is where I'm ignorant. In order to change my nutrition behavior to include insurance of multi-vitamins I need to see more solid clinical studies in healthy humans showing that taking X-supplement above and beyond RDA is indeed insurance and not detrimental, or wasted money.

Meanwhile, the US NIH has fact sheets on dietary supplements: ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/list-all/.

NIH also has a helpful online Dietary Supplement Label Database: www.dsld.nlm.nih.gov

These are requirements that neither OP nor I stipulated. You can always give a failing grade by selecting criteria designed to give that result. Who said anything about "above and beyond RDA"? Proof of slowing aging? Calorie restriction? Reductionism? Whole plant foods? Studies restricted to healthy humans? These are all straw men, because they’re not mutually exclusive alternatives to taking a multiple or don’t address the reasons for taking one.

The only facts I need to recommend a multiple are those that establish that certain substances are required in the human diet, and that many actual human diets fail to provide them all. Many people have died from things that could have been prevented by taking a simple multivitamin. Beri-beri, scurvy, pernicious anemia are just a few historic examples. Even today, deficiency of magnesium is common; vitamin D. Does your diet provide enough selenium? And if you eat nothing but plant foods, you can become very ill for lack of vitamin B12. Other deficiencies are less common, but not absent. Calorie restricted diets, keto diets, and many others are commonly used and may result in deficiencies of their own if not very carefully constructed. Seniors commonly have multiple deficiencies. We simply don’t know that OP’s diet is going to supply every one of these nutrients.

There is more than one way to deal with these facts. Some prefer a piecemeal approach ... wait until you experience certain symptoms, then go through an extensive diagnostic process of ferreting out which nutrient or nutrients are responsible, and then address those specifically. We can see this process at work in numerous posts in this and other forums. But what is the cost of that? Is it truly cheaper in the long run than just making sure you have all the known essentials to begin with?

It’s a legitimate choice. It is not wrong or bad or incorrect to choose to take a multiple.

[medievil]

My motivation to use sups is to modulate my cognition/personality.