52 replies to this topic

[Leon93]

In the past I ordered a few supplements and I later find out some of these are better to be thrown away. I am very sceptic of supplements now, especially since creatine has caused my hair to thin. There were many sites who claimed this only happens in the genetically susceptible, but this is 100% bs. Everyone has 5a-reductase enzymes, as well as DHT. Creatine causes the first to raise the latter. DHT in turn blocks hair follicles to absorb some nutrients. These sites will list 50 benefits, with only some of them mentioning it might cause hair loss. How responsible of them.
I´ll admit, I took a relatively high dose (5-10g a day), but there were enough sites who claim it would not give any negative side effects. I obviously took it due to the ergogenic benefits. 

As you can imagine, this has made me really sceptic of all supplements. Many sites do not list negative side-effects properly, and I intend to put more focus on this issue to prevent other people from making the same mistakes.

So, this post will be a focus on known negative side-effects and safety of certain supplements/herbs. Please add some yourself you are aware of, and share a source or your opinion as well if it is necessary to avoid it. Here are a couple I know:

- All testosterone boosters are bs, with possible exception of stinging nettle and tongkat ali. However,
- ​Tongkat Ali can cause hair loss as it lowers SHBG.

- Stinging Nettle has a case study of causing gyno.
- Panax even has two case studies of gyno.
- Reishi can cause liver damage in powder form when taken for a month or two (case study).
- Valerian probably is not that toxic, even at long-term but I want to mention there are some case studies about it which had some negative outcomes.
- The spices cassia cinnamon, tarragon, stevia (up to 1,8x body weight in pounds a day max, but perhaps better to avoid), nutmeg (only safe in very low dose), I believe star anise is harmful as well
- Fennel (it is safe, but it can raise estrogen in men. It´s really low in antioxidants anyway so better take in other spices instead.
-Valerian
- Kava had some toxic outcomes.
- Horny goat weed/epimedium, I read something about raising estrogen levels
- Pueraria lobata/kudzu, also read something about raising estrogen levels
- Gotu kola, I read something about it causing liver damage
- Vinpocetine, selfhacked.com was not positive at this at all
- Yerba mate, there was a study which found high carcinogenic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, but this might have been the cause of the way it had been prepared
- Bacopa monnieri had anti-fertility effects in mice studies.
- Turmeric had anti-fertility effects as well, but it has so many other positive benefits that I am willing to take it. The anti-fertility effects are like transient as well.
- Echinacea, astragalus and panax: all immune boosters so probably not good for anyone with certain auto-immune diseases. 
- MSM, not good for those who practice methionine restriction
- Inositol, lowers testosterone
- CLA, might cause fatty liver and act pro-inflammatory. Fat burning effects are exaggerated anyway.

Luckily, then there are also a few supplements/herbs/spices I am certain of which are positive:
- Vit D, increases life span. Also limit skin cancer when taken as a substitute for sun-UV.
- Amla, extremely high in antioxidants and vit C, but loses vit C easily as it is water soluble. So not a problem.
- Hibiscus tea, also very high in antioxidants. It has a high manganese count, but up to 1 quart a day can be consumed (nutritionfacts.org has a video on this).
- The other spices which I did not mention. Even though they are safe only for long-term in small amounts.
- Erythritol, the only sweetener in sugar-form which actually good for you. 
- Molasses

Then there are a couple supplements I would be really grateful about if anyone knew a certain safety concern/negative side-effect: ashwagandha, schizandra, andrographis, ginsengs, acai, ginkgo, maca, chlorella, lemon balm, astaxanthin, DHEA, melatonin, pycnogenol, rhodiola rosea, devil´s claw, polypodium, bosweilia serrata, cissus, CoQ10, glucosamine, NAC and lavender.

And final as a bonus, what do you guys think of raising testosterone. Does it give serious negative side-effects as well for men?

Edited by Leon93, 19 December 2017 - 03:36 PM.

[jack black]

there is a side effects you probably didn't think of. relevant to some of us who are employed.

http://www.longecity...dom-drug-tests/

[RWhigham]

1 tsp of ceylon cinnamon powder + 1 tsp of ginger powder taken before bedtime severely dislodged my ear crystals causing BPPV

 

I woke up in the middle of the night so dizzy I could not stand and had to crawl to the toilet where I sat for hours throwing up. Various head manipulations for benign paroxysmal positional vertigo (BPPV) as shown on YouTube allowed me to recover.

 

I resumed taking ceylon cinnamon 1/4 tsp several time per day for it's reported stimulation of neuron growth for memory improvement  One evening I made the mistake of eating some pickled ginger with sushi.  Severe BPPV happened again. My recovery was much slower than the first time .

Edited by RWhigham, 19 December 2017 - 04:50 PM.

[Leon93]

@jack black, I read the post but I don´t know what you mean to say with the link...

@RWhigham Wow, that´s very peculiar to hear! I am pretty sure ginger is one of the healthiest spices out there! And I´m certain ginger powder form is even better!
However, I have a paper in front of me I´ve written not too long ago with every spice listed on it + the maximum long-term dosage. I have listed ginger as 1-2g max, so just to be safe I think 1g should be maximum. Considering 1 teaspoon is about 4 grams, the dose might have been the cause??? I have turmeric as 1g maximum as well (which is in the same family as ginger).

On ceylon cinnamon, I have listed it as 1-10g. Yes it´s a huge range but I read somewhere 10g is still safe due to the low amount of a certain toxic compound in the ceylon version. So if what you are saying is true about cinnamon being the cause of BPPV, 1g might be the maximum safe long-term dosage.

I will share the dosage for each single spice I did research on in the past in a new post. I can only do a maximum of 5 posts a day due to me being new to the site, which is really annoying.

Edited by Leon93, 19 December 2017 - 05:36 PM.

[Skyguy2005]

AFAIK Reishi was implicated in one case study only (Hong Kong). The herb could have been contaminated with pesticides/heavy metals etc, and other agents were also being taken which could be a cause. Also, no animal studies back up this idea, and Reishi is pretty good for the liver in every animal and human study I've seen. It should be called "100 beers herb", because that's how many you'll be able to drink without a hangover...

 

It also exended the lifespans of yeast and in one study mice (not replicated). So there's that. For general liver damage herbs information, check Livertox, it's pretty good.

Edited by Skyguy2005, 19 December 2017 - 05:43 PM.

[RWhigham]

Too much Omega-3 made me tired and lethargic in the afternoon and evening like I was taking something toxic.

3g/day of Krill oil is promoted as an anti-inflammatory. I bought Krill Oil for my wife to reduce her ibuprofen use. When she didn't like it I gave it a try.

 

I was taking 2g/day of Calamari Oil and 1.5g/d of Krill Oil when I started to feel poisoned.

At first I eliminated nearly everything else from my regimen not suspecting the Omega-3's.

Lately we found that 10 tart red cherries twice a day are a better anti-inflammatory than ibuprofen, and without the ibuprofen side effects.

Edited by RWhigham, 19 December 2017 - 05:47 PM.

[Oakman]

If you are combining any number of supplements (not vitamins), esp. Herb/mushroom/plant based ones into a daily regimen, my sage advice is to cut the recommended dosage for each to a fraction of the recommended. Many herbs contain multiple subcomponents not necessarily noted. Taking many supps simultaneously often leads to liver detox overload and can result in overdose/poisonings/side effects such as what has been noted. I always start any untried supp with very minimal dose to check for effects, then increase cautiously, again, esp. when taken with others.

[pamojja]

I always start any untried supp with very minimal dose to check for effects, then increase cautiously, again, esp. when taken with others.

 

That's also my strategy, and it served me well. The only side-effects I experienced was a little headache from too much zinc (>60mg) without balancing with at least a bit of copper. I'm taking most of the supplements mentioned together without any bad effects. But everyone is different. It seems to me everything can cause side-effects under certain preconditions. Read from one guy on longecity with allergic reaction even to vitamin C merely from oranges.
 

[RWhigham]

Men should avoid estrogenic supplements.

 

Stops atherosclerosis progression ref, but Gotu kola is strongly estrogenic and may not be suitable for men.

  Pycnogenol 100 mg 1cap -atherosclerosis/monocytes/NF_kb/TNF-a  synergistic w gotu_kola

  Gotu kola 250 mg 1cap synergistic w pycnogenol for no_plaque_progression, -libedo +estradiol

 

  Gotu kola overdose (heaping tbsp in tea) may have caused slow recovery brain fog

  Gotu kola 1tsp added to astragalus & stinging nettle tea for a month gave me an extremely high estradiol blood test.

 

 A molecular docking study of phytochemical estrogen mimics from dietary herbal supplements

The purpose of this study was to identify potential estrogen mimics or anti-estrogens in phytochemicals found in popular dietary herbal supplements. The data gathered can only suggest the possibility of a phytochemical to be an anti-estrogen or a mimic, not confirm its estrogenic properties.

 

Compounds in popular supplements that dock strongly with the estrogen receptor: 

 Gotu kola (Centella asiatica) - 2 compounds  

 Ginkgo biloba - 3 compounds 

 Wild yam (Dioscorea villosa) - 15 

 Black cohosh (Actaea racemosa) - 11  

 Red clover (Trifolium pratense) - 8

 Licorice (Glycyrrhiza glabra) - 26 compounds strongly docking to the estrogen receptor 

 Chaste tree (Vitex agnus-castus) - 5 

 Muira puama (Ptychopetalum olacoides or P. uncinatum) - 8 compounds

 Tribulus terrestris - 6 compounds.

 Echinacea - 6 strongly docking compounds 

 Milk thistle (Silybum marianum) - 3

 Damiana (Turnera aphrodisiaca or T. diffusa) - 3

 Dong quai (Angelica sinensis) - 3 

 Passionflower - 

 Fenugreek (Trigonella foenum-graecum) - 2

 Rhodiola rosea - 2

 Sambucus nigra - 1 

 

 

Edited by RWhigham, 19 December 2017 - 10:15 PM.

[pamojja]

Would say depends on the case. If one monitors hormones and starts with low doses, any estrogenic effect will become appearant. I haven't observed one in me with the following taken together:

 

 Gotu kola (Centella asiatica) - 2 compounds  

 Ginkgo biloba - 3 compounds

 Licorice (Glycyrrhiza glabra) - 26 compounds strongly docking to the estrogen receptor 

 Tribulus terrestris - 6 compounds.

 Echinacea - 6 strongly docking compounds 

 Milk thistle (Silybum marianum) - 3

 Fenugreek (Trigonella foenum-graecum) - 2

 Rhodiola rosea - 2

 

[RWhigham]

From my notes: (no references)

 

 Feverfew 1cap 500mg 2.5mg parthenolides -NF-kb/LPS/CRP/inflam +Sirt1,  addictive

    & has withdrawal symptoms after daily use for a few weeks

 Fenugreek tea -inflam,  damages thyroid gland with long term use

 Strontium citrate, falsifies BMD Dexa scan, makes the BMD look better from the radio opaque strontium,

    may not represent actual bone density 

 Quercetin,  damages DNA if post dose level is maintained too long from frequent repetition

 Valerian root 1 cap +sleep -MAO/aging   risk_of_falling_at_night for old people with poor balance

 Carnosine -T3, inhibits T4->T3, but synergistic w pterostilbene 

 Inositol 1 tsp strongly-inhibits-autophagy +memory/cognition-in-aged,

    should be taken near lunch if you want your cellular house-keeping autophagy to start at night and continue in the morning

 

Edited by RWhigham, 19 December 2017 - 10:23 PM.

[RWhigham]

No lifespan extension in mice - per Spindler ref

 

  Curcumin 1 cap -NF-kB/CRP/TOR1/stem_dif +stem_rep/Nrf2

  Pycnogenol 1 cap 100mg -BPH/BP/atherosclerosis/monocytes/NF_kb/TNF-a

  Pterostilbene 1 cap 50mg +SIRT1/memory/autophagy/PPAR_a -Cancer w EMIQ

  Pomegranate 1cap ellagic-175mg -nF_kB_2-ways/CIMT +Urolithin_A/select_mitophagy

  Quercetin  +senolytic,  damages DNA if post dose level is maintained too long from frequent repetition

  Green and Black Tea (including EGCG)

  Milk-Thistle 1cap 150mg -NF-kB/inflam/cancer/iron +telomerase/BMD

  Taxifolin (Milk Thistle)

  Cinnamon, Ceylon  1 tsp/day +BPPV -LDL/tremors +neurogenesis/mitofission

  Morin (Moringa tea)

  Sesame

 

[Heisok]

Rwhigham what does the monocytes mean? Reduction, increase or ? Mine are a bit out of whack, and I take 150 mg per day of Pycnogenol.

 

 ? Pycnogenol 1 cap 100mg -BPH/BP/atherosclerosis/monocytes/NF_kb/TNF-a?

 

Thanks.

 

 

No lifespan extension in mice - per Spindler ref

 

  Curcumin 1 cap -NF-kB/CRP/TOR1/stem_dif +stem_rep/Nrf2

  Pycnogenol 1 cap 100mg -BPH/BP/atherosclerosis/monocytes/NF_kb/TNF-a

  Pterostilbene 1 cap 50mg +SIRT1/memory/autophagy/PPAR_a -Cancer w EMIQ

  Pomegranate 1cap ellagic-175mg -nF_kB_2-ways/CIMT +Urolithin_A/select_mitophagy

  Quercetin  +senolytic,  damages DNA if post dose level is maintained too long from frequent repetition

  Green and Black Tea (including EGCG)

  Milk-Thistle 1cap 150mg -NF-kB/inflam/cancer/iron +telomerase/BMD

  Taxifolin (Milk Thistle)

  Cinnamon, Ceylon  1 tsp/day +BPPV -LDL/tremors +neurogenesis/mitofission

  Morin (Moringa tea)

  Sesame

 

 

Edited by Heisok, 20 December 2017 - 12:09 AM.

[Leon93]

@oakman, wise advise. This was my own understanding as well. Thing is that creatine was the first supplement I ever tried. Many sources stated some people might use 10 gram as a maintenance dose. I took it for about 3 months, might have been a bit longer. Perhaps 4.

@RWhigham, thank you a lot for the link. I typed in ´estrogenic supplements´ on google and got the link as a first result! Stupid of me to have missed it, but alas. You don´t suppose pycnogenol is estrogenic as well right?

Here is something important I need to share first: I am convinced phytoestrogens ONLY raise estrogen levels when consumed in larger amounts over long periods. Personally, I consume about 100/150 grams of roasted soy beans for protein and a handful of flax seeds for omega 3´s each day. I think the only case studies which showed some estrogenic effects from soy where in people which consumed about 9-13 servings for long periods. A serving of roasted soy beans is calculated to be 192 grams. But I suspect it to be a bit high so I tend to go with half of it, which still equals to at least 864 grams a day.

And yes, higher protein intake is associated with a lower life-span (I guess this also counts for plant-protein) than a high-carb diet, but I also like to have some muscle on my body. Higher muscle mass has been associated with a lower risk of all-cause mortality, less body problems at later ages and many other benefits. Off course it´s possible to build sufficient muscle on a high-carb diet, but it´s more difficult. It will also be somewhat harder to lower body fat percentage, even though mine is already pretty low anyway. But if one truly wishes to live longer they should also incorporate hard-willed strategies like fasting.

Now, I forgot to mention a few herbs off course. There are still herbs out there like st. John´s wort, aloe vera, bergamot, milk thistle, goldenrod, shijalit, chitosan and motherwort f.e., but I find all these have no real benefit to me. They´re only good for people with certain problems like allergies or diseases. They don´t offer any fortifying, enhancing effects like ergogenic, nootropic, esthetic, lower mortality or longer life effects.
I also didn´t list plant oils and man-made supplements like racetams, aspirins etc. It might be a bit silly, but I tend to stay away from them. I´m convinced oils are better to be avoided, and I have had bad experiences with SSRI´s f.e.; they come with too many negative side-effects. I have read too many negative effects from ´non-natural´ supplements. Synthesized compounds  which are similar to those in our bodies (like carninutrients or any other amino acid) are fine by me as long as I can´t get them from my diet.
Neither do I list extracts like sulforaphanes, grapefruit seed extract, ECGC, bean pod extract, quercetin etcetera. Those things are just silly. Just eat/drink the darn whole-food/drink already!

So here are a couple I´d like to add:
- Magnolia is safe up to 6 weeks. There are two studies which showed several negative side-effects though (side-effects displayed at WebMD).
- I forgot to mention a case study of gyno when taking Angelica. 
- NAC probably lowers life-span by reducing glucosamine levels and blunting methionine restriction effects. I looked into this herb as it does seem to offer a lot of benefits (like OCD in a double-blind placebo RCT). But there is rTMS-therapy for me anyway, so no need to waste money and limit my life-span.
- Shijalit was highly contaminated at a study which looked at Indian-based products. It was banned in Canada as a result.
- Triphala had the same story, but Amla seems to be the most potent source of the three anyway so I see no reason to risk contamination anyway.
- I noticed I have deleted Tribulus Terrestris from my long list of supplements, which means it wasn´t worth it to even look over it. I know at the back of my head Cory McCarthy once said it was harmful. It doesn´t appear to boost testosterone anyway or any other significant benefit, so why even bother...?
- Saw palmetto theoretically causes estrogenic effects because it blocks/lowers DHT, just like finasteride. However, it contains progesterone which lowers estrogen, unlike finasteride. That might be why there is no case study of gyno in saw palmetto, but there are several on finasteride. There are very few reviews told by a few people they got gyno after supplementing it for a relatively short period of time (<6 months), but I don´t worry as I consume some detoxifying compounds in broccoli every day. There are more reviews of gyno cases after supplementing for a few years, but still no official case studies. Luckily, gynaecomastia is transient in most cases. But it´s still dumb to risk the unneccesary.
I´ve been supplementing saw palmetto for 1,5 month now and I don´t see even the slightest bit of gyno, and I take in about 500mg-2g a day! If you combine saw palmetto with creatine, increasing and decreasing DHT-levels can be balanced out, theoretically. I am grateful my hair has become a bit more thicker since I stopped taking creatine for several months, but I think it´s a result of the saw palmetto. It´s not back as it was before yet, but I have to wait at least for two more months to conclude the effectiveness. That´s because it took 4 months of creatine before I noticed my hair becoming thinner.
- Terminalia arjuna had a study with some ergogenic effects (500mg). Haven´t looked to well into it, but I haven´t come accross anything negative yet.
- Yohimbine was a compound I have looked into several times. It had some negative effects for those who are anxiety-inclined. Also has some safe issues, so take in at small dose. I found this compound particulary useful as it appeared to be about the only serious fat burner (not that I need it). But it´s banned in many countries, like mine, so it might not cross the border if found. Perhaps would even result in a bounty??
- Fenugreek is a tough one on testosterone. Some displayed it to boost testosterone, others to lower testosterone. Appears to be safe though. Upper long-term dosage appears to be about 2,8g.
- Glycine is something I take in at about 5 grams a day. I take it as user Darryl did extensive research on it. It gives benefits by methionine restriction. Also has some sleep benefits as well. The only negative side-effect I could find were some anti-fertility effects in mice studies. But, strangely enough, there are also a couple of studies which showed glycine has pro-fertility effects in mice. So no definitive conclusion.
- Rhodiola rosea inhibits COMT enzyme. Have to look a bit more into this herb.
- Vitex agnus: you might want to avoid this unless you want your libido to plummet. It has been called chaste tree for a reason
- Muira Puama seemed useless to me to take in as it is a bean which is normally consumed in higher amounts. I can´t get it from any market near, so it´s just not going to work. But even if there were, the whole L-DOPA story raised some questions for me. I also find it weird that the outer shells shouldn´t be touched unlike regular beans.

EDIT: To the person who gave a ´needs references´ symbol; yes, you´re completely right. I got this info from couple of sites: examine.com, nutritionfacts.org, WebMD, MayoClinic, Livestrong, selfhacked, longecity and superfoodly.
Links are very much needed, but it´s so much work that I leave it as it is for now. I just wanted to get this as quickly out there as I could. You guys may just want to help yourselves. The studies shouldn´t be that hard to find. 

 

@sensei, the comment below me: omnivores get an average of 1-1,5g daily. I know I said 5-10g, but for most of those weeks, it was closer to 10 grams than 5. And it was a maintenance dosage. Most sources do recommend 2-5 grams as a maintenance. That´s about all I have to say about it. Hair thinning really doesn´t run as well in my mothers family, of which my hair most definitely is from. And my health is just about as well as it can be perhaps, read here what I eat on a daily basis (it´s a few comments down below): http://www.longecity...ck/#entry836246
And no steroids, hypogonadism and liver problems as well. Neither is it male pattern baldness. My hair has become equally thinner on my entire head, both upper and sides. And just to note: I have very thick, curly, black hair. The older generation of my mom´s side have the same hair, even at the age of almost being 60. I think this is more than sufficient evidence.

Edited by Leon93, 20 December 2017 - 01:56 AM.

[sensei]

Unless you overdose creatine -- and you have liver problems -- and/or you are taking steroids -- and/or you are hypogonadal

 

 

Creatine does not cause thinning hair nor health problems

 

You get more from the meat you eat every day than what a normal level of supplementation gives

 

Most people eat about 1 lb of fish/chicken/beef -- whatever combination of meat and eggs you want -- per day

 

That = 5 grams of creatine

 

You have male or female pattern baldness, like Billions of people 

Edited by sensei, 20 December 2017 - 01:18 AM.

[RWhigham]

Taking too many P450 inhibitors can be a problem. People taking rapamycin must be especially careful. Here is a list ref

 P450 inhibiitors.jpg   136.98KB   0 downloads

[RWhigham]

Be careful of combining P450 inhibitors, especially avoid inhibiting the clearance of rapamycin.  Here is a table of inhibitors

 

 

[RWhigham]

 

Posted Today, 05:07 PM

Rwhigham what does the monocytes mean? Reduction, increase or ? Mine are a bit out of whack, and I take 150 mg per day of Pycnogenol.

The list preceded by a minus means reduction. Reducing monocytes usually means less inflammation. Monocytes in particular crawl along the inside of arteries and turn into macrophages when they consume oxidized LDL. This seems to be how plaques get started.

Edited by RWhigham, 20 December 2017 - 02:50 AM.

[Heisok]

Thanks RWhigham, that helps. I did have localized inflammation in the form of edema, with bruising below the knee, but mostly in ankles and feet. (No acute injury to cause it.) My Monocytes were 16% about 10 days ago during the worst of the swelling. (Other tests were abnormal, but that is beyond the OP's discussion.)

Edited by Heisok, 20 December 2017 - 05:20 PM.

[pamojja]

Taking too many P450 inhibitors can be a problem. People taking rapamycin must be especially careful. Here is a list ref

P450 inhibiitors.jpg

 

I think real problem with P450 inhibition starts by adding prescription meds. I take more than 20 of the mentioned herbs on a daily bases without encountering any problems. But everyone is different and has differing detox abilities. Also in vitro research most often has little bearing in a complex living organism.
 

 

Table 1. Herbal remedies that are inhibitors of cytochrome P450 activity in vitro.

 

CYP Herbal Remedies

• CYP1A2 Black/green tea, dan shen, devil’s claw, Echinacea, fo-ti, ginkgo, ginseng, grapefruit juice, kava, licorice, resveratrol, St. John’s wort, wu-chu-yu tang
• CYP2B6 Licorice, luteolin
• CYP2C8 Devil’s claw, fo-ti, ginkgo, usnic acid
• CYP2C9 Cranberry, devil’s claw, Echinacea, eucalyptus oil, evening primrose, fo-ti, garlic, genistein, ginger, ginkgo, ginseng, goldenseal, grapefruit juice, grapeseed extract, green tea, kava, licorice, luteolin, milk thistle, saw palmetto, St. John’s wort, soy, tumeric, usnic acid, valerian
• CYP2C19 Devil’s claw, Echinacea, eucalyptus oil, evening primrose, fo-ti, garlic, ginko, ginseng, kava, milk thistle, St. John’s wort, usnic acid, valerian
• CYP2D6 Black cohosh, black pepper, C. roseus, devil’s caw, dong quai, Echinacea, eucalyptus oil, evening primrose, fo-ti, genistein, ginger, ginseng, ginkgo, goldenseal, grapefruit juice, grapeseed extract, green tea, kava, luteolin, milk thistle, saw palmetto, St. John’s wort, soy, yohimbine
• CYP2E1 Echinacea, garlic, ginseng, kava, resveratrol, St. John’s wort, watercress
• CYP3A4 A. dahurica, β-carotene, black cohosh, black pepper, black mulberry, black raspberry, C. aurantium, cat’s claw, chamomile, cranberry, dan shen, devil’s claw, dong quai, Echinacea, eluthero, eucalyptus oil, evening primrose, feverfew, fo-ti, garlic, genistein, ginkgo, ginseng, goldenseal, grapefruit juice, grapeseed extract, green tea, kava, licorice, luteolin, milk thistle, oregano, pomegranate, pomelo, red clover, resveratrol, sage, saw palmetto, schisandra fruit, St. John’s wort, soy, tumeric, valerian, wild grape

[jack black]

@jack black, I read the post but I don´t know what you mean to say with the link...
 

 

which part didn't you understand? the bottom line is you can lose your job.

 

coming back to you original question, Harmaline and harmine (in Syrian Rue) are known neurotoxins causing tremor and other neurodegenerative diseases.
 

[RWhigham]

Taking too many anticoagulants may be ill advised.

Herbal medicines: anticoagulation effects

 

Herbal medicines that increase the risk of bleeding:

• Black Cohosh: Claims to be useful for menopausal symptoms. Contains small amounts of anti-inflammatory compounds, including salicylic acid. Theoretically could have intrinsic/additive antiplatelet activity.
• Chamomile: Claims to reduce inflammation and fever, to be a mild sedative, relieve stomach cramps. Increases risk of bleeding because it contains phytocoumarins, which have additive effects with warfarin.
• Feverfew: Claims to prevent migraines. Increases the risk of bleeding because it individually inhibits platelet aggregation, has additive effects with other antiplatelet drugs. Also additive effects with warfarin.
• Fish Oil: Claims to prevent/treat atherosclerotic CV disease (800-1500mg/day). Also used to decrease triglycerides (>4g/day). Dose dependent bleeding risk increases with dose >3g/day.
• Garlic, Ginger, Ginko, Ginseng: Increases bleeding risk by interacting with antiplatelet drugs to inhibit platelet aggregation and inhibit fibrinolysis. Also augments warfarin.

Herbal Medicines

• Garlic: inhibits platelet aggregation (organosulfur), discontinue for seven days
• Ginkgo: inhibits platelet activating factor (terpenoids, flavonoids), discontinue for thirty six hours
• Ginseng: inhibits platelet aggregation and lowers blood glucose (ginsensosides [mimic steroids]). Check PT/PTT/glucose, d/c for 24 hours (preferably seven days)
• Saw Palmetto: associated with excessive intraoperative bleeding (mechanism unknown, likely multiple), in the absence of pharmacokinetic data, no recommendations re: preoperative continuation can be made

Other supplements  ref

• Salicylate-containing         anti-platelet
• Coumarin-containing          anticoagulant
• Vitamin E                           anti-platelet anticoagulant
• Vitamin D                          anticoagulant
• Fish oil (omega 3)             anti-platelet fibrinolytic
• Garlic                                anti-platelet
• Nattokinase                       fibrinolytic
• Chocolate                         anti-platelet
• Evening primrose oil        anti-platelet anticoagulant
• Lumbrokinase                  fibrinolytic

Edited by RWhigham, 25 December 2017 - 02:36 AM.

[Leon93]

Thank you RWhigham, 

I know aspirins and ibuprofen also cause blood to become thinner. Perhaps willow bark as well?
As you posted about P450, do you take in rapamycin? And what herbs/supplements/spices do you take in yourself? Also for increasing lifespan/longevity/anti-aging supplements?

@jack black, ah never mind. Already got it

And just to eleborate one more time on the creatine in general, because I think it is the reason why I got 2 ´disagree´ ratings on my first post: I don´t say one shouldn´t take creatine. I would recommend starting a low dose like 1-2,5g for a few months and see what happens, just to be safe. If everything is fine, you can decide yourself to up the intake or not. My hair already got a bit thicker and curlier again. It´s a slow process, but I only have been taking saw palmetto for about 1,5 month now. It took a couple of months before I noticed my hair become thinner since when I began taking creatine. And it continued to become thinner for a few months after I stopped creatine. I did stop taking 2g of saw palmetto a day though, as it cause me a bad headache a few times now. I even almost fainted of it one time!

[RWhigham]

I know aspirins and ibuprofen also cause blood to become thinner. Perhaps willow bark as well?

As you posted about P450, do you take in rapamycin? And what herbs/supplements/spices do you take in yourself? Also for increasing lifespan/longevity/anti-aging supplements?

 

For life-extension I follow Dr Mikhail Blagosklonny and Dr Alan Green

• Rapamycin  5 mg  once weekly (started at 2 mg and worked up to 5 mg to avoid side effects)
• Metformin 425 mg bid (HEW from mouse study for a 60 kg human is only 500 mg so I could take less) 
• Candesartan 4 mg bid  (ARB  angiotensin receptor blocker) per Dr Alan Green - low starting dose
• White Willow bark 500 mg w lunch (25% salicin - a salicylate precursor, no bleeding in intestine like aspirin)
• Horny Goat Weed 500 mg tid (10% Icariin, s PDE5 inhibitor)  - the recommended Cialis 5 mg/d is too expensive

Other for life-extension

• LDN (low dose naltrexone) 1.5 mg at bedtime (see Dr Paul Rivas)
• Deprenyl (aka Selegiline)  2.5 mg MWF  ref

 

I also take 

• Ashwagandha 300 mg KSM-66 (Jarrow) bid  and 125 mg Sensoril (LEF)  bid
• CoQ10 100 mg tid
• Pantethine 300 mg tid
• Astaxanthin 12 mg 1/d (used to take BioAstin from open ponds, recently changed to cleaner tasting Astareal)
• Glucosamine sulfate 500 mg tid
• Magtein 2 capsules tid  (magnesium threonate)
• Stinging Nettle root 250 mg tid for BPH & reduces aromatase/estradiol
• Olive leaf extract w Hydroxytyrosol 25 mg at lunch
• EVOO (very high polyphenol, recent harvest, extra virgin olive oil) several tsp/day
• Tart red cherries 10 cherries bid - anti-inflammatory works for my wife better than ibuprofen
• DHEA 25mg  qid  (10% bioavailable, restores 10mg) 15-to-5 decline w age
• Boron 6 mg bid
• Vitamin C time release 1 g tid  and L-Lysine 500 mg bid  (Pauling-Rath protocol/2)
• Centrophenoxine 250 mg bid
• Probiotic bid  (PreForPro and DE111 from Deerland enzymes - contains phages)
• A long list of individual vitamins and minerals at lunch - no multi's except 1 capsule Swanson Activated B-complex
• IP6 1g w 250 mg Inositol on rising, nothing else for at least 1hr
• For copper - unsweetened Cocoa, 85% dark chocolate, and handful of cashew nuts

The following are experimental additions pending future blood work

• Bergavit (contains no bergamottin) 125 mg  at lunch, reduces small LDL & triglycerides, increases large LDL & HDL 
• Polypodium leucotomos (Heliocare)  reduces IL-6 100% to push CRP way down
• Jiaogulan (Gynostemma pentaphyllum) Swanson ActivAmp) 225 mg bid - poor man's better Asian Ginseng
• Borage Oil 1 g bid  (19% CLA) 380 mg CLA

LEF's Geroprotect Longevity AI  vs. supplements above

• GLA 300 mg vs. 380 mg from borage oil
• Asian Ginseng extract 20 mg vs. Jiaogulan extract 225 mg bid
• Ashwagandha extract 12 mg vs.600 mg Jarrow KSM-66 and 250 mg LEF Sensoril daily

Edited by RWhigham, 25 December 2017 - 06:40 PM.

[Benko]

RWhigam,

 

Thanks for taking the time to post the information you have.  Certainly worth looking into (I'll get my endocrine panel done with/without e.g. gotu kola), but everything has risk benefit.  Flax seeds have phytoestrogens, are we supposed to avoid them?

 

Also in general for this thread, I would hope no one would take anything without researching the benefits.  Similarly I would hope no one would dismiss a herb/supplement based on one case report, or a study done in mice, or in vivo data (which often does not work in vivo).  And then there is dose i.e. dose makes the poison.  People die from drinking too much water (e.g. after marathons).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RWhigham]

 

Other for life-extension

• LDN (low dose naltrexone) 1.5 mg at bedtime (see Dr Paul Rivas)
• Deprenyl (aka Selegiline)  2.5 mg MWF  ref

Also

• C60-EVOO (1/2 g C60 in 750 mL EVOO) 1 tsp MWF equals 10 mg C60 per week. I would not trust any commercial source. YouTube has plans for the required magnetic stirrer.
• Melatonin 10 mg tid  (at 4 hr intervals 10 am, 2 pm, and 6 pm) half-life is 1 hr.  At 12 pm 6 half-lives after last dose 10/64 = 0.15 mg remaining at bedtime..

Melatonin causes thymus, spleen, and pineal gland rejuvenation in mice when added to drinking water. HED is 20 mg for a 60 kg person. Exogenous melatonin does not suppress endogenous production so it can be started and stopped safely.

[RWhigham]

• Melatonin causes thymus, spleen, and pineal gland rejuvenation in mice when added to drinking water. HED is 20 mg for a 60 kg person. Exogenous melatonin does not suppress endogenous production so it can be started and stopped safely.

•  Needs references x 1    This is sufficiently controversial that it certainly does need references.

Taking a large amount of melatonin as indicated is extremely experimental, I don't know of relevant human studies. I took 10 mg bid for a couple of months in the past with no apparent harm I will stop after two months this time, or sooner if my sleep is disturbed or some other side effect such as headache occur. I intend to get an ultrasound scan of my thymus gland next year. The mice only needed 40 days to grow larger thymus glands.

 

Rejuvenation of degenerative thymus by oral melatonin 

Exogenous melatonin was administered in the drinking water (15 microg/mL) of 7-month-old male Balb/c mice for 40 consecutive days. Our results show that melatonin distinctly reversed the age-related thymic involution

 

Melatonin rejuvenates degenerated thymus and redresses peripheral immune functions in aged mice

 

Human Equivalent Dose

An adult mouse needs approximately 4-7 ml of water daily and lactating females require at least 14 ml of water. ref 

15 ug/mL x 4 to 7 mL = 60 to105 ug for 25 g mouse. HED for 60,000 g human = (1/12))(60,000 g/25 g) (60 to 105 ug) = 12 mg to 21 mg

 

Evidence That Melatonin Is An Anti-Aging Therapy  After extensive review this article leaves melatonin use for life extension unsettled but indicates it's an active area for research

 

Therapy with melatonin does not suppress its endogenous production in healthy volunteers  This refers to an Italian article and has no abstract.  I don't know dose size and duration.

 

Prolonged-release melatonin for insomnia – an open-label long-term study of efficacy, safety, and withdrawal  This was 2 mg taken in the evening. discontinuation even after 12 months was not associated with adverse events, withdrawal symptoms, or suppression of endogenous melatonin production.

 

In this Reference  3 patients developed side effects when combining 20-30 mg of melatonin with other psychotropic drugs. All 3 completely recovered 24 hrs after discontinuing the melatonin. This illustrates two things (1) the potential for drug interaction, and (2) no lasting side effects after discontinuation

 

Melatonin pharmacokinetics following two different oral surge-sustained release doses in older adults  Two groups were dosed at 0.4 mg and 4 mg. In the abstract they mention a half-life of about 2 hours, but the abstract does not agree with the body of the paper quoted as follows: The melatonin half-life noted in our study is comparable to that observed in other PK studies. In a study by Markantonis et al. [43] using 6 mg oral immediate release melatonin, the half-life was similar between the younger and older patients: 45.6 minutes for pre-menopausal females and 51.6 minutes for post-menopausal females. In critically ill intensive care unit patients, Mistraeletti et al. [44] found the elimination half-life to be even longer at 1 hour and 34 min despite a Tmax that occurred only 16 min after administrating 3 mg of melatonin through a nasogastric tube. In regards to elimination half-life, DeMuro et al. [22] also found no statistical difference in half-life between 2 mg oral, 2 mg intravenous, and 4 mg oral melatonin, with half-life values ranging from 59 to 65 minutes.

Renal and liver function parameters remained stable after 6 weeks of treatment.

If I interpret correctly they found that endogenous secretion was unaltered by the exogenous doses; they show the nocturnal endogenous curve adding on top of the the elevated level from exogenous doses.

 

Edited by RWhigham, 26 December 2017 - 07:24 AM.

[RWhigham]

Bioavailability of Melatonin

The absolute bioavailability of oral melatonin.  The absolute bioavailability of oral melatonin tablets was studied in 12 normal healthy volunteers. Subjects were administered, in a randomized crossover fashion, melatonin 2 mg intravenously and 2 and 4 mg orally. Blood was sampled over approximately eight (estimated) half-lives. Both the 2 and the 4 mg oral dosages showed an absolute bioavailability of approximately 15%. No difference in serum half-life was seen in any of the study phases. Oral melatonin tablets in dosages of 2 and 4 mg show poor absolute bioavailability, either due to poor oral absorption, large first-pass metabolism, or a combination of both. 

 

Serum Level after 10 mg oral

10 mg oral melatonin at 15% oral bioavailability gives 1.5 mg in serum. Using the Half Life Calculator serum level drops after 12 hrs (12 half-lives) to 366 ng. Dividing by the amount of body fluid 40,000 mL gives = 9 pg/mL after 12 hrs  For comparison melatonin normally varies between 7 pg/mL (daytime) to 70 pg/mL (middle of the night) per Google images or Search Google images for "melatonin levels during sleep". 

 

Melatonin Crosses the BBB

Wikipedia has fa good article on Melatonin with 113 references. An example ref from Wikipedia Is: Neurotoxins: free radical mechanisms and melatonin protection.  it would be expected that these molecules would protect the brain from oxidative and nitrosative molecular mutilation. The studies summarized in this review indicate that this is indeed the case, an action that is obviously assisted by the fact that melatonin readily crosses the blood brain barrier.   Melatonin is a neuro-protector, and protects the BBB.

Edited by RWhigham, 26 December 2017 - 06:07 PM.

[Leon93]

About OCD: valerian, NAC and inositol all seem promising. I´m not sure about inositol however: 
- I found a study in which testosterone levels of males were raised on a supplement containing inositol amongst others (1g myo-inositol, 30 mg L-carnitine, L-arginine and vitamin E, 55 μg selenium, and 200 μg folic acid (Andrositol)): https://www.hindawi....e/2016/1674950/. They discussed it might have had anything to do with high ROS levels. Do note however the men had an average BMI of 28, higher-than-reference SHBG levels, and low total and lower-than-reference free testosterone levels: https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ije/2016/1674950/tab1/. Reference levels: http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/hrt_ref.htm
- I found a male claiming inositol caused his testosterone levels to drop immensely: www.soulcysters.net/showthread.php/351186-Has-anyone-measured-the-hormones-after-taking-myo-inositol
- Studies of women with PCOS in which inositol helped them, but also raised their estrogen levels and lowered testosterone: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19499845
- User pamojja said his testosterone levels raised even though he takes 5g/day (supplied with comprehensive supplementation): 
http://www.longecity...ck/#entry836770
Unless you want a specific benefit from inositol, perhaps better avoid it. I was interested in this compound due to its OCD benefits, but 18g/day is way too much for my taste. Im still looking into NAC and valerian at the moment. 

- You guys are all probably familiar with the theory that a lower heart rate increases life span? (https://nutritionfac...lse-longevity/)Valerian, motherwort and hawthorn are all known to lower heart rate: https://www.livestrong.com/article/301032-herbs-to-lower-heart-rate/. Motherwort also seems effective for sleep according to WebMD but has no known dosage however. Hawthorn´s dosage is 160-1800mg divided in 2-3 doses daily. Has been used safely for up to 16 weeks, though long-term effects are not known yet. Improves symptoms in people with mild to moderate heart failure.  However, other research shows that these products may actually worsen heart failure and increase the risk of death or hospitalization.

- Furthermore on valerian, because I wasn´t accurate enough in my first post: it might only harm the liver in the long-term. In cases in which valerian might have been the cause, the cases were mild-moderate and never caused acute liver failure. But, this could have been another herb, as all the cases were multi-herb mixes. In the case of hepatitis, the respondents recovered eventually as well. The authors noticed it could have been a result of contamination or another herb. Valeriana probably isnt toxic as it has been widely used.

 
- Perhaps it is better (for males) to avoid saw palmetto, pygeum, nettle root, sophora flavescens (Ku Shen), ganoderma lucidum (reishi) and fenugreek (fenugreek lowers DHT, even though the 5a-reductase enzyme hasn´t been found yet), unless you suffer from BPH or DHT-induced hair loss (all the associated examine.com pages list it). They all contain 5-alpha reductase inhibitors. Alternatively, pumpkin seeds are very high in protein and minerals like magnesium (http://nutritiondata...00000000-w.html), which should be encouraged. Additionally, I found a source rosemary oil also contains 5-alpha reductase enzymes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22517595

- I totally forgot to mention lavender has a case study of gyno (topical application) so should be even more powerful in vivo: https://nutritionfac...xiety-disorder/. Also notice the comment of our very own Darryl who also roams the nutritionfacts.org comment-sections: ´Analysis of performance revealed that lavender produced a significant decrement in performance of working memory, and impaired reaction times for both memory and attention based tasks compared to controls.´ 

- Next to the anticoagulents you provided earlier, camomillie is also a known anticoagulent. Should also be avoided during pregnancy. Feverfew causes uterine contractions and black cohosh causes miscarriages: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15644475

- Cissus quadrangularis has a remarkable case in which a 19 year old boy accelerated bone healing according to the author´s experiences (file:///home/chronos/u-d5dfb022ac9596f8998f7d37f66d54b305d9f5fb/Downloads/108-1-280-1-10-20170524.pdf). Also has a study which labeled it as mutagenic. However, garlic, palm oil, onions and the black parts of toasted bread were labeled as weakly mutagenic (https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/1769715).

@Benko, I know flax seed contain lignans which are actually anti-endrogenic. Phyto-estrogens are hardly a problem as well. It´s only a problem when taken in very high amounts for a very long time (there was a study involving a Japanese man who developed gyno after taking about 700/800+ grams of soy products for a long period of time.

With exception of Valerian until now, I am still very aware of taking those supplements with certain case studies. Personally, I don´t need nor want most of them anyway. I am more interested in supplements/herbs/spices which are safe in the long-term, have notable positive effects without having a need to pause. You need to make a personal benefit-risk assessment yourself. Perhaps take some of those herbs low-dose for shorts periods of time with pauses between them. Most negative side-effects are transient anyway.

@RWhigham, on the study you cited about the compounds which strongly dock with the estrogen receptor, just want to make sure that these supplements aren´t necessarily agonists. Could be antagonists as well.

In general, excuse me for not properly noting the NLM/APA format style or for writing more formal like RWhigham does, but I´d rather spend my time on other things. Just want to get this info out there as quickly as possible.

Edited by Leon93, 26 December 2017 - 07:33 PM.

[RWhigham]

In summary, I watch out for combining things in the following categories

• CYP450 inhibitors
• Estrogenics (for males)
• Anticoagulants
• Those that work by hormesis, or have a toxic level not sufficiently far removed from dosage
• Where the touted effect causes something worse

Hormesis is when a low dose triggers the opposite response to a higher dose. Often there is a narrow therapeutic level. I'm wary of combining these. It seems like combining many different allergy shots, or small doses of poison.

 

An example of causing something worse (the last category above) are supplements which increase NAD+ by inhibitng PARP.  PARP is responsible for DNA repair - I don't think I want to inhibit PARP - even though one of the reported problems in old age is too much PARP which cause more harm than good by using up too much NAD+. If you have a short life expectancy in old age long term DNA deterioration may be less important that boosting NAD+, but reducing PARP if you are younger will trade a positive short-term effect for worse long term DNA deterioration.

 

Another example is reducing serum LDL by increasing polyunsaturated fat (PUFA) consumption. Short term the PUFA causes defective oxLDL to be destroyed by the liver so less is released thereby reducing serum LDL. But increasing the oxidation of your LDL and cholesterol long term is not beneficial.