52 replies to this topic

[RWhigham]

Be afraid, be very afraid   

[pamojja]

Be afraid, be very afraid   

 

Not at all . Beside all these 'dangerous' CYP450 inhibitors, many allegedly natural estrogenics, I also take most natural anti-coagulants. Without any bad effects.

 

However, exactly as with the CYP450s, if I add only 1 pharmaceutical, like a baby aspirin, I do get immediate bloody bowel movements.
 

[sensei]

 

Men should avoid estrogenic supplements.

 

 

 

 

 

Testosterone is an estrogenic substance because it converts to estrogens.

 

Why do you think Body builders and gear-heads take aromatase inhibitors??

 

Furthermore, if you are worried about estrogenic effects from these herbs take some DIM.

 

 

BTW -- very low estrogen is bad for men, causes joint and connective tissue problems and retards healing

[RWhigham]

Monocytes in particular crawl along the inside of arteries and turn into macrophages when they consume oxidized LDL. This seems to be how plaques get started - From post #18   Needs references x 1

 

It's generally agreed that damaged LDL in the artery wall is consumed by macrophages and turns into plaque. How the damaged LDL gets there is an unsettled question. I like Siobhan Huggins explanation. See the article Beyond the Lipid Hypothesis: Plaque Development by Siobhan Huggins at Dave Feldman's Colesterol Code website.

 

After a lengthy background discussion, Siobhan's description of the plaque forming process starts as follows:

1. A monocyte comes across a site of damage (such as modified LDL in the arterial wall).
2. The monocyte lands on the site, forms into a macrophage and begins the inflammatory process.
3. ....  (please see the article and it's supporting material) I don't have permission to copy it.

 

Edited by RWhigham, 27 December 2017 - 08:18 PM.

[RWhigham]

More Siobhan Huggins: Beyond the Lipid Hypothesis (Part 2): LDL Modification

[RWhigham]

 

 

Men should avoid estrogenic supplements.

 

 

 

 

 

Testosterone is an estrogenic substance because it converts to estrogens.

 

Why do you think Body builders and gear-heads take aromatase inhibitors??

 

Furthermore, if you are worried about estrogenic effects from these herbs take some DIM.

 

 

BTW -- very low estrogen is bad for men, causes joint and connective tissue problems and retards healing

 

My concern stems from having a high estradiol blood test - I think from too much Gotu Kola.  The Stinging Nettle Root I take is an aromatase inhibitor. These cautionary notes are intended to point out that combining everything under the sun may not be beneficial.

 

Josh Mitteldorf

Life Extension Supplements: A Reality Check In a paper published late last year, a cautious and expert biochemist reports that none of the most popular “life extension supplement” mixes actually extend life span in mice. Stephen Spindler, biochemistry prof at UC Riverside, has been warning us for years that supplements, herbal extracts and nutraceuticals are, on the whole, ineffective for healthy adults, and that some may actually shorten life expectancy. 

 

Stephen Spindler

Lifespan effects of simple and complex nutraceutical combinations fed isocalorically to mice  In this study Spindler tests a number of popular "life extension" mixes. None increased the life span of his mice including

• Life Extension Mix
• Juvenon
• Ortho Core
• Ortho Mind 
• Bone Restore
• LGCombo *

* LGCombo is a Spindler mix containing the following  - it reduced the mouse lifespan

Aspirin (Sigma), 192 mg

Blueberry Extract with Pomegranate (LEF), 817 mg
Bone Restore (LEF), 350 mg
Cinnulin PF (PE), 595 mg
Super Ubiquinol Coq10 (LEF), 1.17 mg
Creatine Micronized Caps (LEF), 1.66 g
Curcumin 95 (Jarrow), 1.66 g
DHEA (LEF), 248 mg
Ginkgo biloba (LEF), 189 mg
Glutathione Liposomal Liquid (EN), 48.2 μl GSH/ml water in mouse water bottles
Green Tea Extract (Now), 1.14 g
Hawthorn Extract (Flower & Leaf) (PE), 607 mg
Neptune Krill Oil-NKO (Jarrow), 1.17 g (1.17 g of soybean oil was removed from the diet)]
l-Carnitine caps (LEF), 1.30 g
Lecithin (Solaray), 3.50 g
Life Extension Mix (LEF), 0.89 g
Melatonin (SN), 340 mg
Milk Thistle (Solaray), 1.36 g
Mineral Formula for Men (LEF), 105 mg
Mitochondrial Energy Optimizerl (LEF), 2.1 g
MSM (also known as methy-lsulfonylmethane and dimethyl sulfone) (LEF), 3.5 g
Nanogreens10 (BPS), 14 g
Nicotinic acid (Sigma), 1.17 g
Opti-DHA (Douglas), 1.17 g
Optimized Carnitine Caps (LEF), 1.96 g
Ortho Corep (AOR), 5.76 g
Ortho Mind 1.0 (AOR), 1.75 g
Pomegranate extract (LEF), 911 mg
Quercetina 1000 (Jarrow), 876 mg
Resveratrol (Longevinex), 940 mg
SAMe (CN), 619 mg
Sesamin (Scivation), 2.15 g
Super Digestive Enzyme Caps (LEF), 3.85 g
Super K w k2 (LEF), 315 mg
Super Zeanxanthin with Lutein (LEF), 315 mg
TMG (also known as Trimethylglycine, glycine betaine) (LEF), 1.75 g
Ultra K2 (VRP) (Menatetrenone), 350 mg

 

Note: Spindler is now pushing two things that he has a personal financial stake in: NMN for rejuvenation, and Methylation testing to verify rejuvenation.

[sensei]

 

My concern stems from having a high estradiol blood test - I think from too much Gotu Kola.  The Stinging Nettle Root I take is an aromatase inhibitor. These cautionary notes are intended to point out that combining everything under the sun may not be beneficial.

 

 

 

 

 

 

DHEA (LEF), 248 mg

 

known to convert to estradiol

Milk Thistle (Solaray), 1.36 g

 

known to mimic estradiol at estrogen receptors -- likely leading to increased serum estradiol

 

If you don't have Bitch Tits (gynecomastia) you are fine

 

And no, the stinging nettle root you take is NOT an aromatase inhibitor of an real import unless you are taking multiple GRAMS daily -- and the identified effects are based on a METHANOLIC extract

 

The following compounds developed weak to moderate activity: secoisolariciresinol, oleanolic and ursolic acid, (9Z,11E)-13-hydroxy-9,11-octadecadienoic acid, and 14-octacosanol (5)

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/17238068

Edited by sensei, 27 December 2017 - 11:04 PM.

[Leon93]

First off, I tested every of the following herbs for serious negative side-effects like mutagenicity, cytotoxicity, anti-fertility, mutagenicity, DNA damage, heart rate, liver /kidney damage and hormone changes. I also scanned the sites WebMD, nutritionfacts.org, superfoodly, examine.com, LongeCity posts, selfhacked, livestrong, MayoClinic, drugs.com, NIH and a couple other minor sites I could find. I also tested for autoimmune diseases, vitiligo, case studies and RCTs/meta-analyses as well. I only reviewed herbs/supplements/spices with sufficient scienitific studies done on them.

I might have forgotten a few things here and there, so you might want to help out yourself. If I don´t mention something particular, it´s probably not a concern.

And also something important about the estrogen/estradiols: there is a wide variety between the strength of different phytoestrogens (https://nutritionfac...gen-is-in-beer/). In general, I dont worry if there arent any negative side effects or case studies of certain herbs/spices/supplements.  

Ginkgo biloba:
I´ll start with ginkgo as this one is very important; some studies concluded different toxicities, possible carcinogens and DNA damage in ginkgo.
The following paper is from earlier this year, and appears to summarize what other researches have documented earlier about toxicity of ginkgo biloba (also in vivo in humans). However, annoyingly enough, I can´t access it. And I have used Worldcat as well (I´m still a student):
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28055331

Another research concluded it induces DNA damage/mutagenic/genotoxicity in vitro (inhibiting topoisomerases):

https://www.nature.c...icles/srep14633
Another study admits to topoisomerase being toxic in vivo rats:
http://europepmc.org...ct/med/27121056
Strangely enough, I havent seen most regular sites (examine, webmd, mayo, drugs.com, NIH, selfhacked) made an update on topoisomerases. One of the moderators on nutritionfacts.org has however, and someone in the following forum explains a bit more about topoisomerases: http://www.longecity...lthspan/page-11
Another research also investigated the genotoxicity of topoisomerases:
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pt=AbstractPlus
One of the components of ginkgo seems to be quercetin, which is one of these probable genotoxins. Examples of other genotoxins are resveratrol, ECGC, rutin, and fisetin.

Examine.com also lists subdurmal hematomas. There are also bleeding events associated with ginkgo:
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC1490168/

Another man had a cerbral haemorrhage:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../v077p00112.pdf

Ginkgo is associated with higher stroke risk (in older people), and there is higher liver and thyroid cancer risk in mice.

Ginkgolic acid is harmful, so supplements must contain less than 5ppm: https://www.ncbi.nlm...6?dopt=Abstract

At least 3% bilobalide should be aimed for as it is the most important substance in ginkgo for cognition enhancement.
MayoClinic lists it as an orange light herb: https://www.mayoclin...t-20362032?pg=2

From the site: ´probably safe in moderation, and the memory enhancing effects are somewhat conflicting. They do say it may increase memory in healthy adults.´
Is a blood thinner, just like many other anti-aging supplements, interesting correlation there…
 

My own conclusion is to avoid ginkgo as the topoisomerases are probably harmful in vivo (humans). Someone must look into the first study which I cant access to draw definitive conclusions. I find it to bad to avoid ginkgo, as it can help with vitiligo (something I myself suffer from) and can enhance cognition in healthy adults. But ginkgo is also associated with other problems, and it hasnt been concluded ginkgolic acid is the cause of all these problems.

Andrographis:
Lowers resting heart rate (which is good from a longevity/anti-aging/life span standpoint), lowers fertility in rats but one study at humans noted slight increases: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16008115; A book suggest no reason for fertility concerns (at least in males), as only abnormal high doses cause some anti-fertility effects: https://books.google...tagenic&f=false page 369

Lemon Balm:

Contains rosemaranic acid, increases GABA, decreases heart rate, 4 of 5 studies showed cognitive benefits, can decrease alertness however, so maybe combine with herb which counters this. Also lowers blood pressure, but a pinch of salt can counter this. Even helps dementia: https://nutritionfac...for-alzheimers/

Is concidered teratogenic (citral, citronellal), so should be avoided during pregnancy.

Schisandra/schizandra:
Schisandra is an adaptogen, so that explains the differences in heart rate outcomes per study. Is best to take before exercise to inhibit heart rate.

Reduced heart rate in horses in double-blind RCT. It might have weak phytoestrogen activity: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/15256741; https://www.scienced...ence/schisandra; http://onlinelibrary...030504/abstract; https://www.research...of_sport_horses; https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/9603047          
But as I said on at the beginning of this comment, it is not a concern per se. Not all phytoestrogens are equal in potency.
Even more importent though, schisandra showed a 49.2% increase in work capacity (average dose of .5-1.5g). Also less ulcers, 4,5 better run on 1000m and less gas. Heart rate increased however and there was positive correlation: http://www.sciencedi...37887410800216X
https://www.research...ses_in_medicine
Another saw no difference in heart rate: http://www.iama.gr/e...PAR_Tezias2.pdf
Two horse studies saw a decline: http://www.brighterd...ons-schizandrae

Also inhibited DNA damage: https://www.research...xidant_activity

Valerian:

Mentioned this herb two times now in this post. Want to add one study mentioned better sleep quality, might also be helpful for OCD, lowers heart rate, might also lower blood pressure (which you can counter by a little higher salt intake).

Despite some studies about possible toxicity and DNA damage, drugs.com lists no toxicity: https://www.drugs.co...p/valerian.html
A study of Hui-Lian et al., they noticed very high concentrates of valepotriates caused moderate DNA damage in human endothelial cell line. The paper contains the following: However, this was proven to be not due to mutagenic properties of the substance, but to ROS-induced epigenetic mechanisms caused by the very high concentrations of test substance used.

Or in other words; do not take high doses so to avoid epigenetic expression/changes.
A study in mice found valerian in 250/500mg/kg/day doses to have genotoxic effects in sex cells/testes after 90 days. 500mg was significant, 125mg noticed no difference. There was no effect on fertility however, the reasons of which is listed in the discussion: http://scialert.net/...ms.2007.276.283
The author also mentioned spontaneous hemorrhage (Boniel and Dannon, 2001), which was erroneously attributed to valerian, which was meant to be ginkgo.

This 2009 review also noticed limited P450 cytochrome activity.

Inositol:

I was too fast in my latest reply. A person on another forum did state his testosterone decreased immensely. My guess is to measure your hormones before taking inositol, and watch levels progress over time just to be sure.

 

And then on OCD in general; even though valerian seems to be the only supplement with benefits and no serious (long-term) negative side-effects, you may take inositol and NAC at your own caution. I´m not going to risk it myself, especially since the doses are very high. I can recommend rTMS therapy however, which was very effective for me, even though it took at least 20 sessions to notice some benefit. Took way more sessions though to notice lasting long-term effects. But SSRIs and CBT were both completely ineffective for me. SSRIs actually came with very serious negative side effects like complete libido loss, intense back pain, sleepiness and even becoming depressed (which is ironic as the SSRIs I took were anti-depressants). Also male fertility study.

Nine of ten drugs described for depressed patients dont even work: https://nutritionfac...gs-really-work/

 

DISCLAIMER: I do not have a degree in any medicinal or nutritional field, nor have followed any courses on these fields.
 

@RWhigham,

Thank you very much! What you teach is very interesting I think! I already thought if someone like this could be the case (about more NAD+ not always being better per se).
On melatonin: you can also eat an ounce of goji berries for about 15mcg of melatonin: https://nutritionfac...s-for-insomnia/. Because melatonin is potent it can increase blood levels 50-fold in the body, one can get about 750mcg of melatonin of one ounce of goji berries.

And a final question for everyone in general: about antioxidants, I was taught that more is always better. But after reading some more pages here on LongeCity, I heard some people say this isn´t per se the case. My diet is partly based to get as many antioxidants as I can. I consume foods like amla, gloves, turmeric, berries, fruits, greens, legumes, wheat germ/bran, walnuts, sweet potatoes, dates etc. on a daily basis. And I drink hibiscus tea as it is the beverage highest in antioxidants. So is higher better on average?

Edited by Leon93, 30 December 2017 - 06:32 PM.

[Benko]

Leon,

 

"My diet is partly based to get as many antioxidants as I can."

 

Taking antioxidants in food form is different than taking in pill form (as Gregor who you must follow points out).  Those are mostly very healthy foods. Mostly means  excepting wheat for some and drinking the hibiscus tea through a straw to spare your tooth enamel.

 

 

[Leon93]

Thank you Benko, I agree. And to everyone in general: I wish you a very healthy 2018!!

 

http://www.oncotarget.com/index.php?journal=oncotarget&page=article&op=view&path[]=7665&path[]=22203
I don´t know how to interpret this study: 6 out of 36 compounds extended life of baker´s yeast, and some decreased it. The compounds which decreased it are some very healthy common ones:
- ashwagandha (a herb which seems very safe as I looked multiple times into it)
- acai
- strawberries
- crab apples (the healthiest apple: https://nutritionfac...lthiest-apple/)
- cacao nibs (healthiest, safest cacao form (even when looking at contaminants); https://nutritionfac...chocolate-fix/)
- 2 different forms of green tea
- milk thistle
- black pepper (a spice which increases antioxidants of things like turmeric and blueberries)
- black currant

Anyone any thoughts on this?

Edited by Leon93, 01 January 2018 - 12:44 AM.

[Benko]

Yes, stop reading anything other than studies involving humans and I don't mean human cells in test tubes.

[sthira]

My diet is partly based to get as many antioxidants as I can. I consume foods like amla, gloves, turmeric, berries, fruits, greens, legumes, wheat germ/bran, walnuts, sweet potatoes, dates etc. on a daily basis. And I drink hibiscus tea as it is the beverage highest in antioxidants. So is higher better on average?[/font][/size]

Other than eating gloves, your diet sounds healthy! I mentioned Cronometer to you in another post. And if you're motivated to extend your life, and you need to act now, then one great thing you can do is to document your daily nutrition. Know thyself, what do you eat. Then you'll have a rough guide -- it's not perfect -- to your dietary deficiencies. When you study what you eat, then you see deficiency patterns emerge, and these you can target with thoughtfully purchased supplements. For me it's the same predictable shortfalls. And until more clearer evidence emerges, well, here we are searching for perfection.

I'm not sold that that we have solid evidence that any commodity pill will extend lifespan. For a healthy mammal -- that's me, no diseases, I feel good, I'm aging right on schedule anyway -- nothing is here for us to extend lifespan.

Weekly low dose rapamycin looks promising; but it seems premature. It's a calculated gamble. Does long term low dose intermittent rapamycin (like 2-8mg per week) delay aging? No one knows yet.

There's acarbose that appears to extend lifespan in male rodents but not in female rodents, so... we'd like to know more.

Meanwhile, 2018 looks like good times for promising anti-aging research. Look at senolytic study, for example -- kill the evil robot senescent cells before they kill us. The fuckers.

Happy New Year to you, too!

[Leon93]

@sthira,
Gloves haha! Can´t believe I let that one slide! Yeah obviously meant cloves ;p! And yeah I read your comment in my other post, and I already have most ´essential´ supplements I need. The only one I still have to look into is k2mk7.
About the non-essential life extending ones; I can´t seem to get my hands on any OTC supplement. That leaves me with some potential ones like glucosamine, andrographis and valerian. Might be more to some other supplements, but I first have to be sure they don´t have the potential to cause harm like I just found out with ginkgo.
I heard some mention salicylate, which I can´t get in magnesium salicylate form (I think), but aspirin or willow bark might do it as they contain salicylate. I read in some other post you tried willow bark once without experiencing benefits; are you sure you took at least about 500mg a day? Because I´m thinking between 500mg willow bark or 125mg aspirin at the moment. Even though I read something too about aspirin causing irreversible COX inhibition, so willow is probably better.
Then final there is niacin/niacinamide, and I´m not too sure which of these two is better. Niacinamide might not cause the niacin flush, but not sure about this.
EDIT: forgot to mention glycine too and some foods contain salicylate themselves as well (just like glycine).

Edited by Leon93, 01 January 2018 - 07:49 PM.

[African Tuilp]

I use Herbal form Indonesia called lami for losing wight but it make my heartbeat very high and i cant even sleep at night and not lose many wight after all i stopped using it .

[Astroid]

 

Taking too many anticoagulants may be ill advised.

Herbal medicines: anticoagulation effects

 

Herbal medicines that increase the risk of bleeding:

• Black Cohosh: Claims to be useful for menopausal symptoms. Contains small amounts of anti-inflammatory compounds, including salicylic acid. Theoretically could have intrinsic/additive antiplatelet activity.
• Chamomile: Claims to reduce inflammation and fever, to be a mild sedative, relieve stomach cramps. Increases risk of bleeding because it contains phytocoumarins, which have additive effects with warfarin.
• Feverfew: Claims to prevent migraines. Increases the risk of bleeding because it individually inhibits platelet aggregation, has additive effects with other antiplatelet drugs. Also additive effects with warfarin.
• Fish Oil: Claims to prevent/treat atherosclerotic CV disease (800-1500mg/day). Also used to decrease triglycerides (>4g/day). Dose dependent bleeding risk increases with dose >3g/day.
• Garlic, Ginger, Ginko, Ginseng: Increases bleeding risk by interacting with antiplatelet drugs to inhibit platelet aggregation and inhibit fibrinolysis. Also augments warfarin.

Herbal Medicines

• Garlic: inhibits platelet aggregation (organosulfur), discontinue for seven days
• Ginkgo: inhibits platelet activating factor (terpenoids, flavonoids), discontinue for thirty six hours
• Ginseng: inhibits platelet aggregation and lowers blood glucose (ginsensosides [mimic steroids]). Check PT/PTT/glucose, d/c for 24 hours (preferably seven days)
• Saw Palmetto: associated with excessive intraoperative bleeding (mechanism unknown, likely multiple), in the absence of pharmacokinetic data, no recommendations re: preoperative continuation can be made

Other supplements  ref

• Salicylate-containing         anti-platelet
• Coumarin-containing          anticoagulant
• Vitamin E                           anti-platelet anticoagulant
• Vitamin D                          anticoagulant
• Fish oil (omega 3)             anti-platelet fibrinolytic
• Garlic                                anti-platelet
• Nattokinase                       fibrinolytic
• Chocolate                         anti-platelet
• Evening primrose oil        anti-platelet anticoagulant
• Lumbrokinase                  fibrinolytic

 

 

 My Pain MD said his biggest supplement problem was Vitamin E.  Women take it for their skin and thin the blood too much. All oil based supplements thin the blood, by the way.  From what I read, Cod LIver OIl is better than Fish Oils. 

[Nate-2004]

• Melatonin causes thymus, spleen, and pineal gland rejuvenation in mice when added to drinking water. HED is 20 mg for a 60 kg person. Exogenous melatonin does not suppress endogenous production so it can be started and stopped safely.

•  Needs references x 1    This is sufficiently controversial that it certainly does need references.

Taking a large amount of melatonin as indicated is extremely experimental, I don'

 

t know of relevant human studies. I took 10 mg bid for a couple of months in the past with no apparent harm I will stop after two months this time, or sooner if my sleep is disturbed or some other side effect such as headache occur. I intend to get an ultrasound scan of my thymus gland next year. The mice only needed 40 days to grow larger thymus glands.

 

Rejuvenation of degenerative thymus by oral melatonin 

Exogenous melatonin was administered in the drinking water (15 microg/mL) of 7-month-old male Balb/c mice for 40 consecutive days. Our results show that melatonin distinctly reversed the age-related thymic involution

 

Melatonin rejuvenates degenerated thymus and redresses peripheral immune functions in aged mice

 

Human Equivalent Dose

An adult mouse needs approximately 4-7 ml of water daily and lactating females require at least 14 ml of water. ref 

15 ug/mL x 4 to 7 mL = 60 to105 ug for 25 g mouse. HED for 60,000 g human = (1/12))(60,000 g/25 g) (60 to 105 ug) = 12 mg to 21 mg

 

 

 

 

Isn't 40 to 60 days roughly 12 to 20 years for a human? That's a long time to dose 12 to 20 mg of melatonin every day, though I'm guessing my calculations are probably off here.

[Asta]

1 tsp of ceylon cinnamon powder + 1 tsp of ginger powder taken before bedtime severely dislodged my ear crystals causing BPPV

 

I woke up in the middle of the night so dizzy I could not stand and had to crawl to the toilet where I sat for hours throwing up. Various head manipulations for benign paroxysmal positional vertigo (BPPV) as shown on YouTube allowed me to recover.

 

I resumed taking ceylon cinnamon 1/4 tsp several time per day for it's reported stimulation of neuron growth for memory improvement  One evening I made the mistake of eating some pickled ginger with sushi.  Severe BPPV happened again. My recovery was much slower than the first time .

 

I had/have this, and had no idea what precipitated it. I never thought it could have been dietary.

I do have tinnitus in the right ear since (last October), but no hearing loss.

I'm sure you're aware of how careful you have to be with cinnamon sources. 

I cannot find anywhere to buy one that won't destroy my liver.

[Asta]

I personally had a very bad reaction to licorice root extract/glabridin. 

 

It's supposed to reduce visceral body fat, and helps control blood sugar levels in some instances, but that's secondary . 

I took the minimum dosage for my size, and I had a severe hypoglycemic reaction. 

I'm lucky it wasn't so bad I didn't pass out. 

 

The stuff is always on back order, so I assume it works for other people. 

 

I also bought a bottle of GABA at another acupuncturists suggestion. I trust him,  but before I took it, I decided to look closely at possible responses. 

It's sitting on my shelf. 30 bucks wasted. 

 

 

[Dredd]

Took Astaxanthin (12mg from bioAstin) and Prostate lx5 from NewChapter (mix of herbs with a sizeable amount of saw palmetto) i took these two in combination so i cannot specify exactly which of them caused this effect but it was a powerful and totally undesirable one, long story short, it gave me tits and ass, from a skinny dude that cant gain weight to a skinny dude with a fat ass, sore nipples and light case of gyno, as you can imagine i was pissed as i was not expecting these supplements to slowly turn me into a women.

 

as soon as these side effects started which didnt even take a month, i immediately discontinued them and thankfully all is well, body basically went back to where it was before taking these... fat is gone and while some breast tissue remain its unnoticeable, took a long time though, almost a year.

 

I should have researched them better but at the time i still took supplement claims at face value, later i found out saw palmetto inhibits DHT to the point where hair loss sufferers use it regularly and astaxantine is apparently known for causing gyno.... so yeah..

[RWhigham]

Took Astaxanthin (12mg from bioAstin) and Prostate lx5 from NewChapter (mix of herbs with a sizeable amount of saw palmetto) i took these two in combination so i cannot specify exactly which of them caused this effect but it was a powerful and totally undesirable one, long story short, it gave me tits and ass

 

It was not the astaxanthin.  Enlarged breasts in men (gynecomastia)  ​A number of medications can cause gynecomastia. These include: Anti-androgens used to treat prostate enlargement.

 

 

Edited by RWhigham, 08 April 2018 - 11:06 PM.

[Leon93]

@Dredd, I've been taking saw palmetto for a long time now as well (at least half a year), but I think it actually did not cause any gyno effects in me. First I thought it did, but I went to my general practitioner, and I think it basically is just some local fat tissue. I have a pretty low BFP however, something 12-ish, not really low but I can always see my upper four abs. So it's possible being just some local fat tissue. My general practitioner also did not notice anything in particular. When I push on it, it does not seem to hurt or anything. I don''t feel anything hard. I only have this on my left side. Thing is that my left chest always was bigger, even before I started weight lifting. It's just something genetic I guess. So probably not gyno.

[kurdishfella]

Some side effects never go away especially if it is a strong drug you've taken for a long time

[kurdishfella]

Side effects are different from person to person and severity is depended on the health and genetics.

Edited by kurdishfella, 28 April 2022 - 12:24 PM.