674 replies to this topic

[Turnbuckle]

 

The "might do even more damage in transit, as well as re-deposit, thus the oleuropein" part scares me.  Before trying to remove heavy metals from the body, safest thing to do is address the source and stop new ones coming in.

 

 

 

Why should oleuropein scare you? The purpose is to detox the  Aβ released by HEPPS from plaques, preventing it from aggregating and forming new seed plaques. And Aβ is not a heavy metal. It's a fragment of a protein called APP.  Once it starts, the disease is thought to proceed in a prion like fashion, thus it cannot be stopped by prophylactic methods. This thread is directed to reversing the problem, not preventing it.

[gamesguru]

Homeopathic heavy metal chelation is discouraged by professionals for a similar reason to what you mention.  The tendency for metals to be redistributed by weak chelators can be quite more detrimental than leaving alone.  I would therefore caution against hasty and lucrative bandwagoning in the detox boat.

 

Last I checked there was only preliminary evidence that beta and tau amyloids could be prolific prions in the upper echelons of CJD and mad cow.  Nor would this fact, if true, preclude the idea of mitigation.  Epicatechin is known to slow amyloid plaque formation[1].  Presumably another therapeutic compound of greater potency would do more than just slow.. effectively stopping it.

[Moumou]

There is a link between iron and Alzheimer's, but it should perhaps not be seen as a cause and effect link, but the result of mitochondrial dysfunction.

Ferrous accumulation is an effect of dysfunction of cells, particularly nerve cells, at the mitochondrial level.

The ferroxydase enzyme Ceruloplasmin, the normal function of which is to transform Fe2 + into Fe3 +, allowing the transferrin to transport iron in the blood; ceruloplasmin is dependent on the mitochondria which go through the protein SCO1 to supply copper to ceruloplasmin via the membrane protein CTR1 for its metabolic functioning with iron.

When the mitochondria are made defective, they are unable to supply the copper necessary for ceruloplasmin which is then incapable of reducing iron and we observe in AD an increase in plasma apoceruloplasmin (ceruloplasmin without copper) and free copper in the blood.
 

Edited by Moumou, 13 March 2020 - 12:59 AM.

[Moumou]

For required ref.

 

1) Ferroxidase Ceruloplasmin Influences Reelin Processing, Cofilin Phosphorylation and Neuronal Organization in the Developing Brain: https://www.scienced...044743118301349

"Ceruloplasmin is an important extracellular regulator of iron metabolism. We showed previously that it stimulates Reelin proteolytic processing and cell aggregation in cultures of developing neurons."

 

2)  Elevated serum copper and ceruloplasmin levels in Alzheimer’s disease : https://onlinelibrar...1111/appy.12077

 

I have more information about it, more precisely on enzymatic chains that lead to the metal accumulation.

 

I endrorse Turn's point of view but, zero plaque is a wishfull thinking but worth trying. One more factor should be added aside plaque and mito, reduction of plaque circulation with reduction of BBB porosity and improving lymphatic system.

Edited by Moumou, 13 March 2020 - 06:26 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

I endrorse Turn's point of view but, zero plaque is a wishfull thinking but worth trying. One more factor should be added aside plaque and mito, reduction of plaque circulation with reduction of BBB porosity and improving lymphatic system.

 

 

One doesn't have to get to zero plaque, as some plaque is possible without symptoms. Once plaque gets above that point and produces symptoms, damage will likely progress more quickly. So getting down below the symptomatic level is the goal, and keeping it below that level with an occasional treatment appears easily achievable. 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 13 March 2020 - 06:49 PM.

[Moumou]

We are on the same page, I never thought you would think otherwise.

[marcusflowers]

Clearance of brain waist may have other pathways. Now we need to figure out how to stimulate the flow to remove the disaggregated AB aggregates.

 

https://www.newscien...ste-and-toxins/

[marcusflowers]

Today was day two of my weekend Hepps protocol. Took all the ingredients Saturday and Sunday morning. After reading the prior article on the brain drain, it mentions that the drainage pathways through the nasal region and even the optic region are as important or even more important than the other pathways.

 

I was going on my mountain bike ride and I decided to do my own experiment. I had disaggregate plague floating around inside my brain, how could I boost the drainage through my nasal pathway.I went into the frig and cut up 1/4 of a fresh onion. I drank down an entire large glass of water, Chewed on some onion and put the rest in a baggy. I brought my bottle of water and the baggy of onions in my pocket. As I was bicycling I would chew on a piece of onion. During the trip I was continuously breathing in and spitting out nasal phlegm every 15 to 30 seconds during the ride. I would drink more water and chew on more onion. Breathing in and spitting out more nasal phlegm. After the 30 minute ride I took off my sun glasses and to my amazement my vision was clearer. I put my bike away went inside and sat down. My mind felt so much better. I think I'm on to something. I plan on continuing the Hepps protocol as much as possible along with the water and onions with by mountain bike ride. At 64 years old I plan I riding my Rock Hard bike as long as I can. My father and his brothers all had some form of Alzheimer's.

I have to beat this any way I can, because I already have some memory loss, I ordered the only Lions Mane with a standardized of at least 2% Erinacine on the market. I will try it as the growth factor to boost drainage. Any suggestions are welcome.

 

 

[Turnbuckle]

Today was day two of my weekend Hepps protocol. Took all the ingredients Saturday and Sunday morning. After reading the prior article on the brain drain, it mentions that the drainage pathways through the nasal region and even the optic region are as important or even more important than the other pathways.

 

I was going on my mountain bike ride and I decided to do my own experiment. I had disaggregate plague floating around inside my brain, how could I boost the drainage through my nasal pathway.I went into the frig and cut up 1/4 of a fresh onion. I drank down an entire large glass of water, Chewed on some onion and put the rest in a baggy. I brought my bottle of water and the baggy of onions in my pocket. As I was bicycling I would chew on a piece of onion. During the trip I was continuously breathing in and spitting out nasal phlegm every 15 to 30 seconds during the ride. I would drink more water and chew on more onion. Breathing in and spitting out more nasal phlegm. After the 30 minute ride I took off my sun glasses and to my amazement my vision was clearer. I put my bike away went inside and sat down. My mind felt so much better. I think I'm on to something. I plan on continuing the Hepps protocol as much as possible along with the water and onions with by mountain bike ride. At 64 years old I plan I riding my Rock Hard bike as long as I can. My father and his brothers all had some form of Alzheimer's.

I have to beat this any way I can, because I already have some memory loss, I ordered the only Lions Mane with a standardized of at least 2% Erinacine on the market. I will try it as the growth factor to boost drainage. Any suggestions are welcome.

 

 

Did you find any research that indicated onions would increase CSF flow? Cycling is known to do that (at least when the spinal cord was looked at), so are you sure it was the onion and not the cycling? The following is from a doctor's editorial--

 

Spinal Fluid Flow and Pain Management

Age-Old Treatments May Help

It may also well be that many of the age-old techniques used to treat basic pain exact their effect by increasing SFF. These techniques include massage and manipulation of the spine. Walking, stretching, cycling, heat, and yoga may all help SFF. 

https://www.practica...pain-management

 

 

As well as rocking and massage chairs, once you crash your mountain bike.

 

Also, onions contain quercetin, which is known to appear in the CSF after supplementation. It is an antioxidant that can decrease the phosphorylation of tau, which is the other half of the AD etiology. Hyperphosphorylated tau interacts with Aβ and makes it far worse. So I suggest you try quercetin instead of onion. Standard quercetin has poor bioavailability, but this may be increased by using a quercetin phytosome. (Thorne Research distributes such a product.) 

 

The higher bioavailability is shown in the plot below, where the bottom curve is the regular quercetin.

Attached Files

•  Quercetin.PNG   388.44KB   1 downloads

Edited by Turnbuckle, 16 March 2020 - 09:53 AM.

[aribadabar]

 

Did you find any research that indicated onions would increase CSF flow?

 

My read is that he used the onion to induce increased sniffling and crying in order to expedite the removal of the amyloid waste via the nose and eyes.

Edited by aribadabar, 16 March 2020 - 08:01 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

My read is that he used the onion to induce increased sniffling and crying in order to expedite the removal of the amyloid waste via the nose and eyes.

 

Increasing nasal mucus has no obvious connection to CSF drainage. 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 16 March 2020 - 08:23 PM.

[marcusflowers]

I have read that nasal drainage is possibly considered another route for deep cervical lymphatic drainage that could be another pathway for clearance of AB and misfolded proteins.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4563157/

[marcusflowers]

This is not scientific but an ancient ayurvedic technique that uses nasya to cleanse the sinuses which would help support a healthy nasal lymphatic flow.

I ordered some from amazon. It's certainly worth a try since my sinuses are dry most often. It's called Organic Nose to Brain oil.

 

https://lifespa.com/...inal-fluid-csf/

[marcusflowers]

Maybe conventional science is stuck in their old thinking of the drainage mechanism for frontotemporal dementia and alziemerer's.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/30147112

Edited by marcusflowers, 19 March 2020 - 10:12 AM.

[gamesguru]

This is not scientific but an ancient ayurvedic technique that uses nasya to cleanse the sinuses which would help support a healthy nasal lymphatic flow.

I ordered some from amazon. It's certainly worth a try since my sinuses are dry most often. It's called Organic Nose to Brain oil.

 

https://lifespa.com/...inal-fluid-csf/

 

It's interesting because many brain infections enter through the nose.  HSV-1 is probably the most notorious in human brains, I think the co-evolution goes back to our inception.  Some people when they are old, have susceptible genes, maybe aren't living the healthiest, and as a result long-dormant viruses spin back to life: shingles, neuropathy, encephalitis.. all things which can be caused by Zoster and Herpes viral flares in late life.

 

It's funny when you take a step back, how connected different systems can be.  I'd be curious to get Turnbuckle's opinions here if this is just a case of correlation or a real potential cause. If so it would open the door for investigating a whole range of immuno-modulating compounds.. zinc, vitamin D, garlic, and Asian mushrooms to name a few.

 

Alzheimer's disease: mounting evidence that herpes virus is a cause

New review finds that over 150 papers strongly support the view that herpes simplex plays a role in Alzheimer’s disease.

guteurls.de → Read full article here

[marcusflowers]

 

Edited by marcusflowers, 19 March 2020 - 08:23 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

This thread is directed to clearance of  Aβ and hyperphosphorylated tau, not to the etiology of the disease. That said, the strong genetic basis of the disease is obvious, as variants of a single gene have dramatic effects on the risk of getting AD.

 

There are three variants of the EPOE gene, and since each cell has 2 of them, they come in six combinations. The rarest pair by far is E2/E2, and the incidence of late onset Alzheimer’s of the other pairs relative to E2/E2 is shown below—

 

Gene variant

combination — relative risk

 

E2/E2 — 1

E2/E3

E2/E4

E3/E3 — 1.7

E3/E4 — 5

E4/E4 — 20

 

See this site for more risk factors.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 19 March 2020 - 10:23 PM.

[marcusflowers]

gamesguru. I tryed the Hepps protocol last winter at full strength and I had such a bad outbreak of Herpes like I ever did before. In my eyes nose and lips. My ears became totally clogged. I had to dose on Lysine for a few weeks, I believe I had some type of herxheimer reaction to the hepps that it caused a spontaneous release of the herpes virus through my lymphatic vessels in my nasal cavity from my brain. That's why I think there has to be other routes of brain discharge. The container of Hepps sat in the freezer for over a year before I decided to try the protocol again very slowly with a gram of lysine. I have started the protocol again because I am more scared of Alzheimer's because it runs in the family. I figured I had no choice.

 

So far so good, I'm doing the the protocol 4 days a week and my mind is feeling clearer. I continue to eat raw onions because it seems to keep my sinuses very clear.

 

I'm am including the complete article of Lymphatic drainage of cerebrospinal fluid in mammals on the next post because the complete article seemed to disappear in full text.

I would really like some input.

 

[marcusflowers]

Like I really want to know my gene factor. Like I really want to have it tested, I know my family history, I know what my father and his brothers went through.                                                  I have a full N40 cylinder of nitrogen just in case.

[aribadabar]

 

I'm am including the complete article of Lymphatic drainage of cerebrospinal fluid in mammals on the next post because the complete article seemed to disappear in full text.

 

This one?

 

Like I really want to know my gene factor. Like I really want to have it tested, I know my family history, I know what my father and his brothers went through.                                                  I have a full N40 cylinder of nitrogen just in case.

 

With such prevalence in incidence, sounds like you are 99% E4/4 carrier.

[marcusflowers]

https://www.biorxiv....1/485995v1.full

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6524970/

Edited by marcusflowers, 21 March 2020 - 01:27 PM.

[marcusflowers]

I have been taking  Magensium Threonate for years. Should be considered as part of the protocol.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/29125684

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6857673/

[Turnbuckle]

I have been taking  Magensium Threonate for years. Should be considered as part of the protocol.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/29125684

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6857673/

 

That was in the previous update, and perhaps I should add it back in.

[marcusflowers]

Turnbuckle. Thanks for responding. The genes are just a disposition to other factor such a environment, diet, pollution and work chemicals ect. My father and his two brothers all worked up in NJ. My father Alois was a Union carpenter and cut lots of plywood, particle board and formica . Edward worked at Dow Chemical. Martin worked at Alcoa fabricating aluminum. All the brother in NJ died with the disease.My grandmother on my mothers side who lived in NJ and worked in NYC died of it too. The entire family was from Slovakia. My father's father and his brother Ambroze who stayed back on the farm in Sovakia both died working hard with clear minds till there deaths in their late 80's. No one on my grandmothers side that stayed back on the farms in Slovakia died of any dementia related diseases. This is why I believe I can help myself. I'm back on the protocol and them some.

 

My mothers friend Harry towards the end of his life developed calcium crystals in his eyes. They were actually coming out in his tears. He said they felt like sand in his eyes. I asked him what his doctors thought it was ? He said they had to adjust his Warfarin. I never understood what that meant.

 

So on that note this is the last article on the etiology of the disease because it may have some relevance as to the mineralization taking place within the head which may justify using

Magnesium Threonate in the protocol.

 

Last one. But I will keep you updated on my progress with the protocol. Peace.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6804219/

[gamesguru]

This thread is directed to clearance of  Aβ

 

I found that olives also lend themselves to preventing AB from forming, so my point about chelation and "unwanted redistribution" is moot.  Olives are both a preventative and a cure.

 

gamesguru. I tryed the Hepps protocol last winter at full strength and I had such a bad outbreak of Herpes like I ever did before. In my eyes nose and lips. My ears became totally clogged. I had to dose on Lysine for a few weeks, I believe I had some type of herxheimer reaction to the hepps that it caused a spontaneous release of the herpes virus through my lymphatic vessels in my nasal cavity from my brain. That's why I think there has to be other routes of brain discharge. The container of Hepps sat in the freezer for over a year before I decided to try the protocol again very slowly with a gram of lysine. I have started the protocol again because I am more scared of Alzheimer's because it runs in the family. I figured I had no choice.

 

So far so good, I'm doing the the protocol 4 days a week and my mind is feeling clearer. I continue to eat raw onions because it seems to keep my sinuses very clear.

 

I'm am including the complete article of Lymphatic drainage of cerebrospinal fluid in mammals on the next post because the complete article seemed to disappear in full text.

I would really like some input.

yeah weird things can happen if you toy too much.  Once i was taking goldenseal, a bit of yeast started to grow in my mouth and throat.. pretty weird.

 

lysine is the most common thing in the press.  But i think Asian mushrooms and immune modulators might be the next big thing.  Viruses literally, once in your body, never leave.  They inject their DNA into yours; they don't disappear, the immune system just nudges them into dormancy.  Hence shingles and related flare-ups in old age.. probably preventable by an as yet not-precisely-determined immune stack.  I think mushrooms have a spot here, they both enhance function in immuno-compromised patients and reduce cytokine storms in overactive ones.

Edited by gamesguru, 22 March 2020 - 01:30 PM.

[William Sterog]

What is your opinion on alcohol consumption?

https://journals.plo...al.pmed.1003022

https://www.nature.c...598-018-20424-y

[gamesguru]

i doubt modest consumption of alcohol has a significant effect in either direction, in terms of general mental decline or common neurologic disease.  Much more likely to get an effect out of something even as commonplace as bacopa than by making some small concession (or introduction) of social drinking.

 

i didn't see any studies posted showing the runaway cascade prion effect of the the beta amyloid plaques or the hyperphosphorylated tau neurofibrillary tangles.  AFAIK these are generally localized phenonmena, so by targeting the genes that lead to the rogue state, we can virtually prevent or halt the disease.

 

i realize there is a whole 18 pages dedicated to it, but the plaques and aggregates are quite large.  Removing them with olives is ambitious, and even if "detoxed" there is no evidence the remaining brain lesions can be revived to any significant extent.  Preventing old cells at the aggregation process stops the awful disease in its tracks, are we not agreed in that?  Thanks

[Turnbuckle]

i doubt modest consumption of alcohol has a significant effect in either direction, in terms of general mental decline or common neurologic disease.  Much more likely to get an effect out of something even as commonplace as bacopa than by making some small concession (or introduction) of social drinking.

 

i didn't see any studies posted showing the runaway cascade prion effect of the the beta amyloid plaques or the hyperphosphorylated tau neurofibrillary tangles.  AFAIK these are generally localized phenonmena, so by targeting the genes that lead to the rogue state, we can virtually prevent or halt the disease.

 

i realize there is a whole 18 pages dedicated to it, but the plaques and aggregates are quite large.  Removing them with olives is ambitious, and even if "detoxed" there is no evidence the remaining brain lesions can be revived to any significant extent.  Preventing old cells at the aggregation process stops the awful disease in its tracks, are we not agreed in that?  Thanks

 

I don't make any recommendation on alcohol use with this protocol.

 

As I said in post 61, once the buildup has reached a certain level, it can accelerate in a prion-like fashion --

 

While lacking the overt infectivity of prions, many other proteins are also capable of seeded protein misfolding and the generation of self-propagating polymeric or amyloid protein assemblies now appears to be widely involved in the pathogenesis of many other human diseases. Consequently “prion-like” mechanisms and the prion strain phenomena have become a major research focus in other neurodegenerative conditions, in particular, in Alzheimer’s disease (AD) and Parkinson’s disease where propagating assemblies of amyloid-β, tau and α-synuclein are being studied (Prusiner, 2013; Goedert, 2015; Collinge, 2016; Walker, 2016; Qiang et al., 2017; Condello et al., 2018; Peng et al., 2018; Vaquer-Alicea and Diamond, 2019). Notably, in the case of tau, structurally distinct fibrillar assemblies from brain have recently been characterized in AD, Pick’s disease and chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) strongly suggesting that distinct strains of propagating tau assemblies are contributing to different disease phenotypes in humans (Fitzpatrick et al., 2017; Falcon et al., 2018; Falcon et al., 2019).

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6629788/

 

 

 

Plaques are not being removed "with olives." They are being dissolved with HEPPS and taurine. Taurine has been shown to clear plaques and restore functioning in a mouse model--

 

We orally administered taurine via drinking water to adult APP/PS1 transgenic mouse model for 6 weeks. Taurine treatment rescued cognitive deficits in APP/PS1 mice up to the age-matching wild-type mice in Y-maze and passive avoidance tests without modifying the behaviours of cognitively normal mice.

https://www.nature.c...icles/srep07467

 

 

 

and 

 

Here we report that (1) a small molecule, EPPS, converts neurotoxic oligomers and plaques into non-toxic monomers by directly binding to Aβ aggregates; (2) orally administered EPPS produces a dose-dependent reduction of Aβ plaque deposits and behavioural deficits in APP/PS1 TG mice, even when administration was delayed until after the pathology was well established; (3) the beneficial effect of EPPS probably operates through an Aβ-related mechanism rather by facilitating cognitive processes; and (4) large doses of EPPS appeared to be well tolerated in initial toxicity studies6,7,33.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4686862/

 

 

EPPS is the same as HEPPS, 4-(2-Hydroxyethyl)-1-piperazinepropanesulfonic acid, one of Good's Buffers. It appears to have much more activity than taurine. The last paper says the dissolved aggregate is nontoxic in mice, but my self-experiments suggest otherwise in humans. Measures have to be taken to deal with the toxic products and to prevent redeposition until it washes out with the CSF, which is relatively slow. Mental deficits can be reversed rather quickly insofar as were relatively recent, and longer term gains can be had by the retreat of glial cells and the inflammation they can cause. Physical loss of neurons is mostly permanent, thus it is important to begin treatment as soon as possible.

 

Plaques are also known to involve hyperphosphorylated tau, and this is dealt with with nicotinamide and other components of the cocktail.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 26 March 2020 - 09:53 AM.

[gamesguru]

As I said in post 61, once the buildup has reached a certain level, it can accelerate in a prion-like fashion --

 

Taurine has been shown to clear plaques and restore functioning in a mouse model--

 

When it reaches this critical point, likely late in disease, a few nanomolar of taurine and oleuropein and some chemistry buffer is unlikely to plug the drain.  I don't have a clear reason for this, other than that garlic (and other apoptotic herbs) can't stop stage 5 cancer like it can stage 1.  You are still not addressing the cause.

 

And where does this study say plaques definitely accelerate in a prion-like fashion?  All I see is language suggestive of the possibility:

"propagating assemblies... are being studied"

 

This study also has zero citations currently, suggesting it has yet to be integrated with the rest of the research ecosystem.

 

Physical loss of neurons is mostly permanent, thus it is important to begin treatment as soon as possible.

 

No.  Prevention.  That's whats important.  Beginning prevention as soon as possible.  If you resort to only treatment, you're already years late.  And you're not even preventing new plaques from springing up or halting existing ones, you're just attacking the ones already under development.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

Those tangles, if removed, do not revive nearby lost neurons.  Curing advanced necrosis and spongiosis is beyond the scope of modern medicine.

 

Again the chelating concerns have not been addressed.  HEPPS may distribute amyloid to a previously healthy part of the brain, and just cause issues there.  There is no study showing Oleuropein has sufficient binding chelation to carry it all the way out your kidneys or large intestine.

 

 

Plaques are also known to involve hyperphosphorylated tau, and this is dealt with with nicotinamide and other components of the cocktail.

 

Why nicotinamide, and what else?  I'm curious how this works

 

At the end of the day i see this as a CILTEP stack.  While interesting and deserving of more exploration, its first version has little chance of changing a patient's life.

 

And honestly, if you are following this stack and faithfully dosing your parents on it.. your doctor may know what is better.  Doctors generally support preventive supplements, diet-based changes, and other things which really can slow the progression of the disease (as opposed to merely treating it).  But if you start talking to him about olives and chemistry buffers to dissolve and discharge the plagues you will be rightly met with skepticism.

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

And honestly, if you are following this stack and faithfully dosing your parents on it.. your doctor may know what is better.  Doctors generally support preventive supplements, diet-based changes, and other things which really can slow the progression of the disease (as opposed to merely treating it).  But if you start talking to him about olives and chemistry buffers to dissolve and discharge the plagues you will be rightly met with skepticism.

 

 

I post things I've tried for the benefit of those who want to try them. If they want to run it by doctors, that's up to them. As for olives, you mentioned them, not me. There are no olives involved in this protocol.