22 replies to this topic

[Nate-2004]

Sleep quality is one of the essential ingredients to longevity, energy levels and mood. As part of a larger outline project I am developing on conquering depression, I have split off the subsection on sleep quality to work on separately. I want to share this with you in hopes it will help. This is a work in progress. You'll have to check back from time to time as it develops. I am currently adding citations everywhere I can. 

 

Sleep disorders are becoming very common in the modern era, mostly because of our technology enabled lifestyles. More recently scientists are discovering the importance of sleep and its effect on energy, mood, memory and cognition. They're even pushing for a change in school hours for children as a result of this new understanding.

 

A few years back in 2013 I had an acute bout of insomnia that lasted nearly two months. Distraught, I sought medical help from the University of Pennsylvania Sleep Center and Sleepio, a UK website for CBTi (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia) with an evidence based program for getting sleep back on track. I also discovered I had sleep apnea after I spent a night at U Penn for a sleep study, where nurses attached numerous wires and other various monitoring gadgets to my head, fingers and nose. I slept for only a few hours that night but it was enough to give them the data they needed. Wearing the CPAP sucks but it was like night and day in terms of the energy I had. The doctors as well as the sleep CBT program taught me a lot about sleep and since then, over the past few years, we've learned a lot more about sleep in the world of science.

 

So without further adieu. 

 

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

Edited by Nate-2004, 19 January 2018 - 07:58 PM.

[jack black]

Thanks for the guide. I also have sleep apnea, but could not tolerate the CPAP. maybe I saw bad doc or got bad equipment.

it got better then I lost weight (uphill battle that i'm winning, but slowly). 

question for you. why melatonin dose is so critical?

 

 

[Nate-2004]

Thanks for the guide. I also have sleep apnea, but could not tolerate the CPAP. maybe I saw bad doc or got bad equipment.

it got better then I lost weight (uphill battle that i'm winning, but slowly). 

question for you. why melatonin dose is so critical?

 

It takes about a month to get used to sleeping with CPAP and it's worth the effort, the machine I got is fairly compact, quiet, with a humidifier but I couldn't even tell you what brand. You have to work with the doctor on problems with it, they'll change out the mask or hose or whatever to help out if they're a good doc.

 

I never said melatonin was critical.

[jack black]

you said:

 

Melatonin (0.3 mg max)

 

 

i'm talking about dose.
 

[Nate-2004]

Ah yes for sleep, studies show that 0.3mg is the most effective dosage for sleep. Apparently more than that can actually have the opposite effect and leave you hung over or irritable. Even in the best natural conditions your body only produces about 0.3 to 0.8 mg. 

 

Ideally you would skip the supplementation and use amber glasses around bedtime, this will help your body in any artificial light situation to produce all the melatonin it needs for sleep. For supplements, some of the others I listed are actually better for sleep quality than melatonin.

Edited by Nate-2004, 24 January 2018 - 03:28 PM.

[Adaptogen]

I haven't optimized my sleep nearly as much as I would like to, but some of the things I've found that impact my sleep quality most noticeably are: avoiding blue light and stimulating activities (including audiobooks) before bed, 3 to 4 grams glycine, not drinking much water before sleep, and counter-intuitively, around 1 gram of korean ginseng extract seems to have a pretty favorable impact on my sleep. I still need to experiment with the ginseng more, but my experience seems to correspond with what research has demonstrated.
Panax ginseng extract modulates sleep in unrestrained rats
Fermented Ginseng Improves the First-Night Effect in Humans

Melatonin, theanine, and magnesium all reduce my sleep onset latency, but can't say I have noticed much of an improvement in sleep quality from any of them. Interestingly, intense resistance training pretty consistently disrupts my sleep, especially if I've been out of a routine for a week or so.

[Nate-2004]

Oh and another supplement that seems to drastically improve sleep quality for me, but with diminishing returns over a period of days, is nicotinamide riboside. Some people say this keeps them awake if they take it in the evening, but I don't take it in the evening, I take it right before I get in bed to sleep. It does cause sleeplessness if I take it earlier in the evening. This may have something to do with how long it takes to affect you.

[Jiminy Glick]

Tryptophan makes me extremely tired. I don't know how long it takes to convert to melatonin but it usually makes me really tired about 2 hours after taking it.

[Nate-2004]

Tryptophan makes me extremely tired. I don't know how long it takes to convert to melatonin but it usually makes me really tired about 2 hours after taking it.

 

Yeah for me it makes me wired and gives me insomnia.

[Jiminy Glick]

 

Tryptophan makes me extremely tired. I don't know how long it takes to convert to melatonin but it usually makes me really tired about 2 hours after taking it.

 

Yeah for me it makes me wired and gives me insomnia.

 

 

That's strange perhaps something do with time of intake and the circadian rhythm. 

Slow kratom works well. I want to try kava, supposedly that works well for relaxation.

Edited by Jiminy Glick, 11 February 2018 - 03:22 PM.

[Mr Serendipity]

Magnesium which use to knock me out before bed now gives me insomnia. I'm now taking it in the morning with all my other supplements, and it didn't make me tired during the day. It's annoying also because magnesium use to be a godsend before.

 

Your mention of sleep apnea in my vitamin c thread helped me; I honestly think it's something I could be suffering with. I paid more attention to myself falling asleep, and noticed my throat/airways cut off more, and my breathing became more shallow. And I also developed heavy snoring in the last 5 years which is most likely related to weight gain.

 

I bought some easy breath strips and been using them the last 3 days (wearing one now). These miraculously do help me breath better when I'm lying in bed, I honestly feel the difference.

 

I'm hoping to use these strips as a temporary solution while I lose some weight and work on my core muscles. After I get to a healthy body fat worked on my core muscles, I'll re-examine myself for sleep apnea. I'm hoping it's just a weight thing atm (from what little I've read on sleep apnea). Working on my core muscles is my own idea, just because I think a stronger core will help with supporting my breathing in general, but this is just a guess.

 

Lastly I should mention, I think a big part of my insomnia problems are my mindset, or just a part of who I am. The reason why I say this, is ever since I was a kid I had trouble falling asleep, and would wake up tired for school. Too many thoughts, too much energy, and never willing to shut down my brain. And I think it's carried with me into adult life. Because I've tried a lot of times in the past to get a decent sleeping pattern going, and though I may succeed for a few days, I always end up falling back into a bad one. So I think my mindset and shutting down my thoughts is a big problem with me.

 

Lastly lastly, I should also mention I need to get some exercise in and quit smoking again (nicotine big stimulant for me), and don't smoke weed with my cousin again (munchies, over eatings, bad sleep). Exercise being something I got out of the habit of since university, smoking (tobacco) I got into the habit of since about August 2017, and smoking weed now and then since around the same time. And I remember one of the last times I used my cross trainer for 30 minutes in December 2017, I ended up falling asleep quickly, and having a really good sleep.

 

So the same as you, my sleep is a work in progress, and I'll post any positive findings I have here if any develop, which will most likely require lifestyle changes first (exercise, quiting smoking).

[Nate-2004]

The only way to know for sure if you have sleep apnea is to do a monitored sleep study where they measure breathing and blood oxygen levels throughout the night. I don't know how it is for the UK but once you get diagnosed in the US your insurance will pay for a CPAP machine which sucks to wear but over a month of getting used to it, it's beyond incredible how much energy you get back that you never knew you could have had. I was starting from a low baseline of being unable to concentrate or stay awake for half the day, to having boundless energy that propelled me into a lot of pretty cool hobbies.

 

While there are other options such as surgery and special pads that go over your nose to create positive airway pressure, the only 100% guaranteed way to ensure you hit the full depth of your sleep cycle without these quality disturbing interruptions is CPAP. Many people who have it don't realize they're not reaching all stages of sleep because the brief gasp for air kicks them back up to a lighter stage but doesn't wake them up. 

 

Also, either follow the sleep guide or follow the program at sleepio.com to get your sleep hygiene back on track. Most people suck at sleep because well, we're maladapted to the modern era of tech.

Edited by Nate-2004, 14 February 2018 - 01:34 PM.

[Mr Serendipity]

OK I have some success to share.

 

So I took some B12 (the methylcobalamin kind under the tongue) yesterday, and took a few more today. I've been falling asleep quickly and didn't get insomnia yesterday, and could finally take a much needed nap today (7pm-11.30pm). It's definitely helping me catch up on my sleep debt along with using these easy breath strips.

 

I knew about B12's effect on sleep before, after I read a study done on delayed sleep onset syndrome or something. Let me quickly google it.

 

Here's a study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/2305167

 

Here's Another 

 

Currently my main insomnia problems atm is I just can't fall asleep (staying awake until 4am in bed). However the B12 administration seems to really help with this, I guess I'm suffering delayed sleep phase syndrome due to B12 deficiency atm.

 

The only reason I don't take B12 on a regular basis is because of the increase in appetite I got in the past (I learnt they give B12 to pigs to increase their appetite, one of the best ways to do it). However I've probably been neglecting B12 too much and this has caused my sleep pattern/delayed sleep phase syndrome to worsen in recent years; so I'm going to find a right balance with this vitamin.

 

Anyway I just wanted to share this. I just love I can finally fall asleep now, and hope it will last and not be a fluke.

[Mr Serendipity]

B12 seems to work with sleep-wake rhythm disorders. But it wasn't the all end cure for my insomnia it seems.

 

I'm going to try some Chamomile tea regularly at night, and see if that works in helping me fall asleep, and giving me a good sleep.

 

It seems like it's a fairly effective benzo for a lot of insomniacs, check out the comments section of this link: http://slumberwise.c...ake-you-sleepy/

 

 

[Mr Serendipity]

OK. So I had this herbal tea last night designed for sleeping. It had a mixture of around 6 herbs including chamomile & lemon grass (I don't have the tea with me so I can list them all). It didn't help me fall asleep (still had insomnia), and in fact gave me a headache. Then I woke up this morning knowing I could have slept longer (but I had to get up for work). 

 

However soon after waking up and driving to work, I felt like I had a good night sleep and was full of brain energy. So I definitely think it gave me some real nice deep sleep which I needed.

 

Now it's 4:15pm and I'm started to get tired again. But it's definitely something I will try again for deep sleep.

 

Oh and the last thing to note is I didn't take any of my supplements yesterday except B12. So this could also be a reason for my deep sleep last night.

 

I might try just a chamomile tea tonight, instead of this herbal tea mixture designed for sleep.

Edited by manny, 21 February 2018 - 04:20 PM.

[Nate-2004]

The active ingredient in lemon grass is more abundant in rosemary extract (rosmarinic acid), you may try straight up apigenin and rosmarinic acid instead (also even more abundant in peppermint). These will only work to enhance rather than induce sleep though. I thought the ashwaganda helps? I just ordered it to try.

 

I'm not sure if I included these techniques in the guide yet but I find the following mental exercises induce sleep pretty quickly on most nights.

 

Math problems or math facts. Addition, subtraction, multiplication, division. The more complex the more mentally exhausting which is good.

 

Word association games. For example, taking one word and associating ten words off that single word, then taking one of thoses ten associated words and associating ten more words off that word.

 

This is akin to counting sheep but a lot more effective. If I've been laying there awake too long it's usually because I'm ruminating on a problem.

 

There's also writing down your list of to do items as mentioned earlier.

[jroseland]

My go-to sleep hacks

• Ashwaganda
• Apple Cider Vinegar & Honey Tea
• Low light before bed
• Candles before bed

I've done a few videos on sleep hacks

[Nate-2004]

I've not kept the sleep guide up to date with what's currently in my guide to conquering depression. See that for further updates to the sleep guide which is just a section of that book/outline.

 

Also as far as Ashwagandha goes, people should probably be aware that while there have been a number of controlled studies, most of that research was funded by companies that sell Ashwagandha. So while I've been trying it occasionally, I'm only cautiously optimistic about it.

[zompy]

Hi Nate, 

 

Thanks for your post, I like it, although it still feels pretty generic for me. I've been looking in to the subject for a longer period of time now, I usually need at least 8, but actually 9 hours of sleep and still my energy levels aren't high at all, or what they used to be. I scheduled an appointment for a sleep test, but that is still a few weeks away. I've read some tips about for example taping your mouth (check out Alex Fergus his blog), and I am also considering to buy an Oura ring to accurately track sleep, I was wondering if they are any other things you'd recommend to try.

[Nate-2004]

Most people over the age of 25 need only 7 hrs and if you're feeling like you need more, it's probably a sleep quality issue. Also, I have a way more up to date version of this guide that is included in my guide to conquering depression. That guide in itself is still a work in progress with a long way to go towards finishing it. I have a hard time copying the sleep section to this doc but I'll do it at some point.

 

That said, sleep quality can come down to other areas of my depression guide, from exercise consistency to nutrition to the times you eat, light levels, sound, etc. It's holistic and comprehensive, so if you haven't covered all the bases I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that you need more than 8 hrs just yet.

 

It's an endless set of tweaks and adjustments no doubt.

[zompy]

Great, would you recommend only reading the sleep part then, or the whole guide you wrote?

[Nate-2004]

Great, would you recommend only reading the sleep part then, or the whole guide you wrote?

 

Well depends on what you're interested in, but it's a comprehensive thing so following other parts of the guide could also lead to better sleep. The focus of the guide is on depression but obviously there are other aspects.

[kurdishfella]

Carnitine helped  me quick tremendously. I think it has to do with improving hearth health. the heart is the most  most powerful organ and energy is the currency of the body which carnitine improves. Heart is mostly muscle so high BCAA / protein / amino acid would be good also and some energy fats like ALA etc

Edited by kurdishfella, 08 May 2022 - 10:51 AM.