31 replies to this topic

[misterE]

Nutrients. 2018 Jan 12;10(1). pii: E77. doi: 10.3390/nu10010077.

 

Low-Carbohydrate, High-Protein, High-Fat Diets Rich in Livestock, Poultry and Their Products Predict Impending Risk of Type 2 Diabetes in Chinese Individuals that Exceed Their Calculated Caloric Requirement.

 

Shan R, Duan W, Liu L.

 

Abstract

 

 

 

The evidence on the association between long-term low-carbohydrate, high-fat and high-protein diets and type 2 diabetes (T2D) is controversial. Until now, data is limited for Chinese populations, especially in considering the influence of extra energy intake. In this paper, we aimed to investigate the association of low-carbohydrate, high-fat and high-protein diets with type 2 diabetes (T2D) risk in populations consuming extra calories and those with normal caloric intake, We also determined whether the association is mediated by insulin resistance (IR) or β-cell dysfunction. A total of 3644 subjects in the Harbin People's Health Study (Cohort 1, 2008-2012) and 7111 subjects in the Harbin Cohort Study on Diet, Nutrition and Chronic Non-Communicable Diseases (Cohort 2, 2010-2015) were analyzed, with a median follow-up of 4.2 and 5.3 years, respectively. Multivariate relative risks (RRs) and their 95% confidence intervals (95% CIs) were calculated to estimate the association between low-carbohydrate, high-fat and high-protein diet and T2D in logistic regression models. The multivariate RRs (95% CIs) were 1.00, 2.24 (1.07, 4.72) and 2.29 (1.07, 4.88) (Ptrend = 0.04), and 1.00, 1.45 (0.91, 2.31) and 1.64 (1.03, 2.61) (Ptrend = 0.04) across tertiles of low-carbohydrate, high-fat and high-protein diet scores in the population consuming extra calories in Cohort 1 and Cohort 2, respectively. The association was no longer significant after adjustment for livestock and its products, or poultry and its products. The mediation analysis discovered that this association in the population consuming extra calories was insulin resistance mediated, in both Cohort 1 and Cohort 2. However, the association was not significant among participants overall and participants with normal caloric intake. Our results indicated that long-term low-carbohydrate, high-fat and high-protein diets were associated with increased T2D risk among the population consuming extra calories, which may be caused by higher intake of animal-origin fat and protein as well as lower intake of vegetables, fruit and fiber. Additionally, the association was mediated by IR. In the population consuming extra calories, reducing the intake of livestock, poultry and their products and increasing the intake of vegetables, fruit and fiber might protect this population from developing T2D.

[Nate-2004]

I get an enormous amount of leafy green vegetables like kale and spinach as well as tomatoes, blueberries, walnuts, pecans, avocado and flaxseed as well as fish oil while on a low carb high fat diet like the ketogenic diet. I maintain a consistent 2.0 to 3.0 level of blood ketones.  The net carbs in all those vegetables is less than 10. Anyone doing LCHF and yet avoiding vegetables and fiber are doing it wrong and seriously misinformed.

 

This study's conclusion is biased towards people doing it wrong. It is more of a problem of being misinformed than it is a problem of the diet. 

 

A lot of the issues with animal fat is related to the oxidation that would otherwise be offset by greens, nuts or berries.

[misterE]

Heme Iron seems pretty damming too though, in terms of diabetes, cardiovascular-disease and certain cancers. Heavy meat-eaters often get diabetes from excess heme-iron, which tends to damage pancreatic beta-cells. 

[Nate-2004]

It's funny how Greger thinks he's making a case against animal fat/protein in this video but really only ends up showing that by adding whole plant foods to a meal of meat or dairy, you end up resolving or cancelling out any the problems associated with eating meat or dairy alone.

 

[dazed1]

Is this a joke? what he show is that when you add animal protein you get far bigger spikes, the same animal protein with zero or close to zero carbs, there goes your low carb theory out of the window.

 

 

[Nate-2004]

Is this a joke? what he show is that when you add animal protein you get far bigger spikes, the same animal protein with zero or close to zero carbs, there goes your low carb theory out of the window.

 

No, what he shows is that when you eat as little as a few pecan halves you resolve the issues put forward by the study he's citing. Also, I tested this myself with a blood glucose meter, I don't get glucose spikes with animal fats. I honestly don't know who does. I see the problem with peroxidation but that's obviously resolved by something as simple as adding a few specific, well chosen plant based foods to your meal.

 

People who still think fat is bad for you are living in the past back when the sugar industry was funding every study. Sugar is the problem, not fat. Here, for those who doubt me, watch this.

[dazed1]

You need  to measure 3-4 times, in a row. After 30, 1, 2, and 3h.

 

I got the biggest issue after whole 5-6h, sometimes. Also glucose meters, does not show insulin spikes. Remember that triglyceride/inflammation triggers a bit later on, can be as late as 5-6h +

 

I dont think fat is problem, i eat 150g of nuts/seeds per day, but i think that animal fat is problem, and it is for me, and many people around me.

Edited by dazed1, 20 February 2018 - 12:17 AM.

[Nate-2004]

You need  to measure 3-4 times, in a row. After 30, 1, 2, and 3h.

 

I got the biggest issue after whole 5-6h, sometimes. Also glucose meters, does not show insulin spikes. Remember that triglyceride/inflammation triggers a bit later on, can be as late as 5-6h +

 

I dont think fat is problem, i eat 150g of nuts/seeds per day, but i think that animal fat is problem, and it is for me, and many people around me.

 

That really makes no sense at all. Nuts contain the same fats that animal fats contain. Monos, PUFAs, Stearic, Oleic. The reason nuts don't have this effect is both the fiber and the tocopherols which as he says in the video, significantly improve the spikes that supposedly occur from animal fats, but not in my own experience. I only get spikes with simple carbs like rice or bread or whatever. 

 

I also tested myself 4 times that day, there was no spike from the heavy cream in my coffee, no rise until I ate lunch which was composed of some carbs. The only time insulin is going to rise is if blood glucose increases.

Edited by Nate-2004, 20 February 2018 - 08:20 PM.

[dazed1]

 

You need  to measure 3-4 times, in a row. After 30, 1, 2, and 3h.

 

I got the biggest issue after whole 5-6h, sometimes. Also glucose meters, does not show insulin spikes. Remember that triglyceride/inflammation triggers a bit later on, can be as late as 5-6h +

 

I dont think fat is problem, i eat 150g of nuts/seeds per day, but i think that animal fat is problem, and it is for me, and many people around me.

 

That really makes no sense at all. Nuts contain the same fats that animal fats contain. Monos, PUFAs, Stearic, Oleic. The reason nuts don't have this effect is both the fiber and the tocopherols which as he says in the video, significantly improve the spikes that supposedly occur from animal fats, but not in my own experience. I only get spikes with simple carbs like rice or bread or whatever. 

 

I also tested myself 4 times that day, there was no spike from the heavy cream in my coffee, no rise until I ate lunch which was composed of some carbs. The only time insulin is going to rise is if blood glucose increases.

 

It does make sense, since nuts and impressivly healthy source of callories, and they do not cause any inflamation (with a few little allergies possiblity) on the other hand, meat is terrible.

 

And no, the video did not show that the nuts can kill the insulin spike you get from animal protein, go back and look at the lentils/butter part, and tell me if nuts can drop your bg/insulin so much, the difference is around 15% vs no nuts meal, the butter increased it trough the roof.

 

And when you talk about sugar, i asked you few times what will happen if someone eats lots of fruits but does not consume animal protein?  will he get IR/diabetes? he will gain some fat?

[matrix83]

Heme Iron seems pretty damming too though, in terms of diabetes, cardiovascular-disease and certain cancers. Heavy meat-eaters often get diabetes from excess heme-iron, which tends to damage pancreatic beta-cells. 

 

I eat animal products every day and donate blood twice per year. Ferritin is always in the 30's. CRP hasn't been over 0.5 as long as I have been tracking. 

[Nate-2004]

And no, the video did not show that the nuts can kill the insulin spike you get from animal protein, go back and look at the lentils/butter part, and tell me if nuts can drop your bg/insulin so much, the difference is around 15% vs no nuts meal, the butter increased it trough the roof.

 

Ugh, from 2:29 in the video, he says it right there as well as in other places all throughout the video, and also he's got another video on green smoothies showing that simply adding blueberries significantly blunts the sugar spike you would otherwise get. So yes, you can eat animal protein/fat and blunt the sugar spike with a number of plant based foods or spices (see cinnamon).

[mikeinnaples]

I see studies like this often what the point of it was? Then the media gets involved and throws there usually wrong interpretation into a sensationalized head line like: " High fat diets cause diabetes " or cancer or whatever.

 

Ignoring veggies/nuts for the most part and assuming they are all optimally healthy take a look at the macros and protein/fat sources below on all 3 low carb diets:

 

Diet one

Macros: 40% protein, 50% fat, 10% carb

Food examples: Beef, Ham, Eggs, Butter, Bacon, Coconut Oil, Palm Oil

 

Diet two: 20% protein, 80% fat, 5% carb

Food examples: Beef, Ham, Eggs, Butter, Bacon, Coconut Oil, Palm Oil

 

Diet three: 20% protein, 80% fat, 5% carb

Food Examples: Fish, Poultry, Avocado, Blueberries, EVOO, Avocado Oil, Grape Seed Oil

 

 

#1: Really unhealthy as you are never in keto due to the high protein and horrible sources of protein and fat. In fact, with this diet, if you are active in the gym, you are more likely bouncing in and out of ketosis and screwing your body up above and beyond what the horrible food is doing.

 

#2: Well at least here you are in Keto after a few weeks, unfortunately you are going to give yourself heart disease if you keep eating this crap.

 

#3: Keto with healthier protein and fats.

[dazed1]

 

And no, the video did not show that the nuts can kill the insulin spike you get from animal protein, go back and look at the lentils/butter part, and tell me if nuts can drop your bg/insulin so much, the difference is around 15% vs no nuts meal, the butter increased it trough the roof.

 

Ugh, from 2:29 in the video, he says it right there as well as in other places all throughout the video, and also he's got another video on green smoothies showing that simply adding blueberries significantly blunts the sugar spike you would otherwise get. So yes, you can eat animal protein/fat and blunt the sugar spike with a number of plant based foods or spices (see cinnamon).

 

 

Are you sure you are not seeing the data wrong? look at the table, the "big" difference is just 0.5 - 0.7 points.

 

 

 

 

So adding nuts, decrease the bg for around 0,7 and the butter spikes the insulin from?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 230 to 420!!, now show me a study in which this huge spike is lowered with the same level as with the plant based meal, with or without nuts, whatever you like, and on top of that, if animal protein is not the enemy, and suga/carb  is, how come eating the same exact meal with "0" on the gi index foods like butter they got insane spikes? ill tell you, that is ANIMAL based saturated fat in its full glory.

Edited by dazed1, 21 February 2018 - 02:42 PM.

[dazed1]

 

Heme Iron seems pretty damming too though, in terms of diabetes, cardiovascular-disease and certain cancers. Heavy meat-eaters often get diabetes from excess heme-iron, which tends to damage pancreatic beta-cells. 

 

I eat animal products every day and donate blood twice per year. Ferritin is always in the 30's. CRP hasn't been over 0.5 as long as I have been tracking. 

 

 

CRP is not enough, you need to check all inflammatory cytokines.

[Nate-2004]

Dude, it's a smaller scale in mmol/dl, that drop on the wonder bread is 30 mg/dl. That's the difference from a reading of 130 mg/dl and a reading of 100 mg/dl. It's significant. Adding nuts to wonder bread has a significant effect on blunting the spike.

 

Also, lentils do less of a good job compared to walnuts or almonds due to the fact that the nuts contain tocopherols *in addition* to even higher fiber than beans.

 

Dropping animal protein is stupid, there are a lot more micronutrients in meat that are missing from plant based foods. If combining plants with animal fats and proteins blunts the negative effects of the former, I'm going to do that.  At the very least, fish, especially salmon, should be included. People like myself and many others are horrible ALA converters and I do not want to lose brain volume by limiting DHA and EPA.

 

The studies showing type 2 diabetes risk in high fat / low carb diets are for people who don't include plant based foods. They're clearly doing it wrong. These studies should result in educating people about a *proper* ketogenic diet, not discourage people who need to be on one. I have essential tremor, it is LITERALLY the only way to greatly reduce my tremor. It has lasting and powerful effects on cognition, fat loss, glycation and most importantly, movement and seizure disorders.  My A1C has dropped to 5.2 from 5.5 over the past year of doing keto off and on.

Edited by Nate-2004, 21 February 2018 - 03:01 PM.

[matrix83]

 

Dropping animal protein is stupid, there are a lot more micronutrients in meat that are missing from plant based foods. If combining plants with animal fats and proteins blunts the negative effects of the former, I'm going to do that.  At the very least, fish, especially salmon, should be included. People like myself and many others are horrible ALA converters and I do not want to lose brain volume by limiting DHA and EPA.

 

Literally, every female vegan or vegetarian I know is supplementing with iron, have little to no muscle mass, are often tired or ill, and eat constantly throughout the day due to hunger. It will be interesting to see the health consequences in ten years of the mass amount of women going this route (at least where I am from).   

[Nate-2004]

 

 

Dropping animal protein is stupid, there are a lot more micronutrients in meat that are missing from plant based foods. If combining plants with animal fats and proteins blunts the negative effects of the former, I'm going to do that.  At the very least, fish, especially salmon, should be included. People like myself and many others are horrible ALA converters and I do not want to lose brain volume by limiting DHA and EPA.

 

Literally, every female vegan or vegetarian I know is supplementing with iron, have little to no muscle mass, are often tired or ill, and eat constantly throughout the day due to hunger. It will be interesting to see the health consequences in ten years of the mass amount of women going this route (at least where I am from).   

 

 

Yeah this is the case with every vegan I know as well. Yeah, I mean, there are problems with eating animal fat and protein but ultimately there's a problem with eating, metabolism basically ages every one. I feel that there's a strategy for greatly mitigating the issues while getting all you need. Also if you're not enjoying life it's really pointless to live longer. I would be utterly miserable as a vegan.

Edited by Nate-2004, 21 February 2018 - 07:02 PM.

[dazed1]

 

 

Dropping animal protein is stupid, there are a lot more micronutrients in meat that are missing from plant based foods. If combining plants with animal fats and proteins blunts the negative effects of the former, I'm going to do that.  At the very least, fish, especially salmon, should be included. People like myself and many others are horrible ALA converters and I do not want to lose brain volume by limiting DHA and EPA.

 

Literally, every female vegan or vegetarian I know is supplementing with iron, have little to no muscle mass, are often tired or ill, and eat constantly throughout the day due to hunger. It will be interesting to see the health consequences in ten years of the mass amount of women going this route (at least where I am from).   

 

 

Thats because they are mainstream vegans, who got no clue what or how much to eat. If you are vegan, you need to eat around 10% more then needed calories to keep up your weight, and you need to load on seeds/nuts.

Edited by dazed1, 21 February 2018 - 10:51 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

I fail to understand how vegan women are not getting enough iron and have to supplement it. Leafy green veggies have a ton.

 

6oz of spinach alone is over half of what you need daily.

[Nate-2004]

I fail to understand how vegan women are not getting enough iron and have to supplement it. Leafy green veggies have a ton.

 

6oz of spinach alone is over half of what you need daily.

 

There are different forms of iron and also, no, Spinach, contrary to Popeye's claims, does not have that much iron. That myth is due to a miscalculation and a load of propaganda during the war. For one thing, 6 oz is only 25% of what you need from *lower absorption* non-heme iron. Nobody that I know eats that much spinach every day. Even vegans I know. Almonds gives you more iron than spinach and even then you'd need to eat a considerable amount to get an RDA. To get a sufficient amount of iron from spinach you'd need more than 30 ounces a day, that's insane.

 

I am just as skeptical about this as I am about the claim that people get plenty of calcium from their diets. Well, that depends on what they're eating. Greens may have calcium but they don't have very much. You'd have to eat an obnoxious amount of greens every day to reach even half the RDA. Yeah, that's 10 oz of spinach just to give you 20%. Same goes for Almonds, just 50% of the RDA after 2 whole cups ground! That's a ridiculous amount of almonds to eat in a single week. Expensive as hell too and after a while that'd get super boring. Milk and cheese have more but still, you have to eat a lot of that and many people are lactose intolerant and frankly, lactose isn't that good for you especially beyond a certain age. Milk also causes acne.

 

Edited by Nate-2004, 22 February 2018 - 02:18 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

 

I fail to understand how vegan women are not getting enough iron and have to supplement it. Leafy green veggies have a ton.

 

6oz of spinach alone is over half of what you need daily.

 

There are different forms of iron and also, no, Spinach, contrary to Popeye's claims, does not have that much iron. That myth is due to a miscalculation and a load of propaganda during the war. For one thing, 6 oz is only 25% of what you need from *lower absorption* non-heme iron. Nobody that I know eats that much spinach every day. Even vegans I know. Almonds gives you more iron than spinach and even then you'd need to eat a considerable amount to get an RDA. To get a sufficient amount of iron from spinach you'd need more than 30 ounces a day, that's insane.

 

I am just as skeptical about this as I am about the claim that people get plenty of calcium from their diets. Well, that depends on what they're eating. Greens may have calcium but they don't have very much. You'd have to eat an obnoxious amount of greens every day to reach even half the RDA. Yeah, that's 10 oz of spinach just to give you 20%. Same goes for Almonds, just 50% of the RDA after 2 whole cups ground! That's a ridiculous amount of almonds to eat in a single week. Expensive as hell too and after a while that'd get super boring. Milk and cheese have more but still, you have to eat a lot of that and many people are lactose intolerant and frankly, lactose isn't that good for you especially beyond a certain age. Milk also causes acne.

 

 

Ok, I was just going with what Chrono listed.

 

Also wait a sec, are you claiming nobody eats 6oz of spinach a day or did you mean (6oz x 4 for 100%) ? I am not even a vegan and I eat more than 6oz of spinach a day in my salads.

[dazed1]

 

I fail to understand how vegan women are not getting enough iron and have to supplement it. Leafy green veggies have a ton.

 

6oz of spinach alone is over half of what you need daily.

 

There are different forms of iron and also, no, Spinach, contrary to Popeye's claims, does not have that much iron. That myth is due to a miscalculation and a load of propaganda during the war. For one thing, 6 oz is only 25% of what you need from *lower absorption* non-heme iron. Nobody that I know eats that much spinach every day. Even vegans I know. Almonds gives you more iron than spinach and even then you'd need to eat a considerable amount to get an RDA. To get a sufficient amount of iron from spinach you'd need more than 30 ounces a day, that's insane.

 

I am just as skeptical about this as I am about the claim that people get plenty of calcium from their diets. Well, that depends on what they're eating. Greens may have calcium but they don't have very much. You'd have to eat an obnoxious amount of greens every day to reach even half the RDA. Yeah, that's 10 oz of spinach just to give you 20%. Same goes for Almonds, just 50% of the RDA after 2 whole cups ground! That's a ridiculous amount of almonds to eat in a single week. Expensive as hell too and after a while that'd get super boring. Milk and cheese have more but still, you have to eat a lot of that and many people are lactose intolerant and frankly, lactose isn't that good for you especially beyond a certain age. Milk also causes acne.

 

 

Dude, Sesame seed has tons of calcium and iron, while being amazingly healthy. Calcium is overrated, magnesium, K, and D are more important. As i said, people who are not well informed, suffer on vegan diets, others enjoy.

Edited by dazed1, 23 February 2018 - 12:30 AM.

[dazed1]

I fail to understand how vegan women are not getting enough iron and have to supplement it. Leafy green veggies have a ton.

 

6oz of spinach alone is over half of what you need daily.

 

Huge amount of woman are iron deficient, add the b12 deficiency, and less calories eaten on top of that, and you get the idea.

[sthira]

Spinach, contrary to Popeye's claims, does not have that much iron. That myth is due to a miscalculation and a load of propaganda during the war.

Two cups of steamed spinach, just a wad, has about 13mg of iron, or 163% RDA. For just one food, this is plenty. The "absorbability" of heme versus non-heme iron is quite unsettled in human nutrition science. Add healthy fat, like olive oil, and this seems to helps with absorbability. Who will measure it within you anyway? One day, innovators shall develop better tech for measuring what's best for individual humans to eat for optimal health.

Nobody that I know eats that much spinach every day. Even vegans I know.

Two cups cooked is quite humble, and, importantly, that's only about 82kcal.

Almonds gives you more iron than spinach and even then you'd need to eat a considerable amount to get an RDA. To get a sufficient amount of iron from spinach you'd need more than 30 ounces a day, that's insane.

When weighed against calories, almonds are nowhere near as potent nutritionally, including iron, as spinach in particular, and leafy greens in general. They're totally separate yet synergistic food categories.

I am just as skeptical about this as I am about the claim that people get plenty of calcium from their diets. Well, that depends on what they're eating. Greens may have calcium but they don't have very much. You'd have to eat an obnoxious amount of greens every day to reach even half the RDA. Yeah, that's 10 oz of spinach just to give you 20%. Same goes for Almonds, just 50% of the RDA after 2 whole cups ground! That's a ridiculous amount of almonds to eat in a single week. Expensive as hell too and after a while that'd get super boring. Milk and cheese have more but still, you have to eat a lot of that and many people are lactose intolerant and frankly, lactose isn't that good for you especially beyond a certain age. Milk also causes acne.

Cronometer is a helpful and accurate tool for plugging into what's what regarding individual foods and RDA. For example, I'm a longterm (agnostic) vegan (>10 years) and the only times I'm RDA-deficient in iron or calcium is when I don't eat leafy greens.

So it def does not take obnoxious levels of greens to hit RDA. Modern USA supermarkets have made leafy greens consumption super easy and cheap. Inexpensive, portable steamers are a huge step forward for vegetarianism, for convenience, for personal health, and for incorporating more and more (green) vegetables into diet. Shop local.

Generally, in diet, weigh risks versus benefits, planetary impacts versus lesser impacts to species and ecosystems, and I stay vegan until better solutions are available. Walk lightly upon mother earth; we depend on her while we enrich ourselves for longevity. Meanwhile, all eyes should be on lab grown meat and the progression of entomophagy, both of which are in humanity's futures.

[dazed1]

And for the ones, who marked my post as need reference,

 

Sesame seeds,

 

 

 

 

http://nutritiondata...products/3070/2

Edited by dazed1, 23 February 2018 - 04:52 AM.

[sthira]

And for the ones, who marked my post as need reference...

I agree that's a silly ass markdown. Lookee: in measuring specific foods, like seeds, we have no exactitude. None. We have generalities. Best guesses based on explosions in boxes. We'll possibly never know precisely, exactly what we're consuming, and how each food complex is reacting to our own particular indie metabolisms (in lifecycle) until better tech is available. Until it is, we're making educated moon-pointing guesses. Eat whole foods = eat educated guess-art. Our guesses are signposts, they're indications and they are not certainties. Literally thousands of chemicals exist in just one miraculous sesame seed's matrix -- we renain in the dark while pretending to know precision.

[Nate-2004]

Never heard of Chrono but If you just type spinach into Google you get the nutrition facts on the side for 100g.

 

100g is about 3.3 oz. 

 

2 cups of spinach, 60g, meets barely 8% of the RDA.

 

So yeah, even if heme iron absorbed well, you're still not getting much.

[dazed1]

Never heard of Chrono but If you just type spinach into Google you get the nutrition facts on the side for 100g.

 

100g is about 3.3 oz. 

 

2 cups of spinach, 60g, meets barely 8% of the RDA.

 

So yeah, even if heme iron absorbed well, you're still not getting much.

 

Yea, thats why you eat seeds, and variety of foods. It was never an issue of lack of iron in the food, but it was lack of co-factors, retinol, bioactive b complex, and vitamin c.

[Nate-2004]

That's fine, I'm sure most vegans out there are not eating nearly enough or any nuts and seeds.

 

I've never eaten sesame seeds except on a bun, should they be ground? Most seeds have to be crushed in some way or they pass right through you.

[dazed1]

Yes, any seeds need to be grinned in order to be absorbed better, and to give the food better taste - they are best when put over your food, example pumpkin seeds which are amazingly healty, taste amazing over almost any kind of food, and they got huge amount of COMPLETE protein.

 

I use around 150g seeds/nuts per day, i do not consume any type of bread, it is waste of calories, and increases insulin/glucose.

Edited by dazed1, 23 February 2018 - 02:29 PM.