34 replies to this topic

[Believer]

I have been taking vitamin K (Life Extension, K1 and K2), vitamin E (Solgar, all vitaminers) and vitamin A (25K IU retinyl palmitate) for about 3 weeks and didn't feel anything at all besides it helping to remove my tooth ache after a week or so.

The reason for mentioning this is that all 3 of these alone have some evidence for increasing male hormone levels.

 

Then I added vitamin D 20,000 IU (cholecalciferol) and an hour or so after that I could feel an increase in testosterone (relaxed, got a spontaneous erection).

I'm on my third day of the vitamin D and I can still feel an increase in male hormones (frequent and strong erections).

I also have less asthma attacks, and it helps ever so slightly with my congested nose and watery eyes.

 

Does vitamin D consistently increase testosterone or does the effect wear off? I know zinc, boron and many other supplements only work for about a week.

And does increasing the dosage from 20k IU have a bigger effect on testosterone?

 

It also seems that vitamin D is messing up my sleep via the 5ht2a receptor, which sucks.

[Believer]

Oh and interestingly, I used my UV-B lamp before trying the vitamin D, which increases testosterone as well as vitamin D. But the 20k IU of vitamin D may have a bigger effect on my testosterone than the UV-B lamp, although the UV-B lamp enhances mood and energy levels which vitamin D does not do (at least not by the same mechanism).

 

The UV-B lamp seems to increase estrogen more than vitamin D (vitamin D is an aromatase inhibitor), which I know by the UV-B lamp causing my nipples to become erect (estrogen receptor dependent) whereas the vitamin D does the opposite of causing my nipples to be less erect.

 

UV-B radiation's mechanism for increasing testosterone may be via multiple ways: one way may be via increasing vitamin D whereas another way may be via increasing the production of cholesterol sulfate. Perhaps there is even more to it.

[Believer]

What a bunch of spineless, weak men. Here I am trying to help others by sharing my knowledge and in return I get this.

[ekaitz]

What uvb dose do you take? I personally get around 200mJ/cm2 (uvb-nb) fullbody daily, which is about 1000IUs.

[dazed1]

Try to add zinc glycinate/picolinate, boron (6mg/day on) and magnesium bisglycinate you will get insane results.

Edited by dazed1, 06 February 2018 - 09:46 AM.

[Believer]

Unfortunately, it ruins my sleep due to the 5ht2a receptor it activates or enhances activity at.

I know there is much talk about the ways to block that receptor but it really isn't easy. Going to try Mangosteen extract which is an antagonist.

[Rocket]

What a bunch of spineless, weak men. Here I am trying to help others by sharing my knowledge and in return I get this.

Do you have pre and post blood work?

[Believer]

Do you have pre and post blood work?

As you are well aware, there are countless studies on vitamin D increasing testosterone. Not only does it increase total testosterone but it also sensitizes androgen receptor, increases free and bioavailable testosterone.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21154195
 

[Ricky93]

I think it only works if you're already deficient

[Believer]

I think it only works if you're already deficient

No, that's what studies show is not the case. It works even if you are not deficient so high vitamin D levels (maybe there is a threshold) increase testosterone.

Bodybuilders also use megadoses of vitamin D to increase their androgen receptor sensitivity. They use it with testosterone injections because it enhances the libido/muscle building effects.

 

[ekaitz]

By the studies, what exactly led to increased T... 25(OH) or 1,25(OH)2? Too much 25(OH) from forced oral d3 supps can block VDR with opposite effects.

[Believer]

By the studies, what exactly led to increased T... 25(OH) or 1,25(OH)2? Too much 25(OH) from forced oral d3 supps can block VDR with opposite effects.

What I took was Cholecalciferol. Are you sure that vitamin D's effects on testosterone is dependent upon the vitamin D receptor? There exists a common mutation of the VDR that leads to reduced function and I have this mutation (SNP).

[Rocket]

I think it only works if you're already deficient

No, that's what studies show is not the case. It works even if you are not deficient so high vitamin D levels (maybe there is a threshold) increase testosterone.
Bodybuilders also use megadoses of vitamin D to increase their androgen receptor sensitivity. They use it with testosterone injections because it enhances the libido/muscle building effects.

I am in the circle of bodybuilders (as a hobby) and I don't know anyone taking large doses of vitamin d... And no one taking it for testosterone effects.

Its very simple to do a pre and post blood test. It will only cost about $200. We don't need people making extraordinary claims without backing it up... If its so effective then please do everyone a favor and get the bloodwork done. Back it up with evidence and not by referencing Wikipedia.

Honestly if vitamin d was anabolic by boosting T, megadosing d would be widespread and it is not.

Edited by Rocket, 09 February 2018 - 02:27 AM.

[dazed1]

 

 

I think it only works if you're already deficient

No, that's what studies show is not the case. It works even if you are not deficient so high vitamin D levels (maybe there is a threshold) increase testosterone.
Bodybuilders also use megadoses of vitamin D to increase their androgen receptor sensitivity. They use it with testosterone injections because it enhances the libido/muscle building effects.

I am in the circle of bodybuilders (as a hobby) and I don't know anyone taking large doses of vitamin d... And no one taking it for testosterone effects.

Its very simple to do a pre and post blood test. It will only cost about $200. We don't need people making extraordinary claims without backing it up... If its so effective then please do everyone a favor and get the bloodwork done. Back it up with evidence and not by referencing Wikipedia.

Honestly if vitamin d was anabolic by boosting T, megadosing d would be widespread and it is not.

 

 

So you are saying, that the holy grail - studies, are now not enough, but what is used or not in the fitness community  is the preferred method to tell if something is working? but then when someone say something works and there is no studies, its all placebo? you do understand how wrong this sounds right? you deiced to pick anecdotal evidence instead of studies to prove your point...

Edited by dazed1, 09 February 2018 - 03:11 AM.

[pamojja]

 

Do you have pre and post blood work?

 

As you are well aware, there are countless studies on vitamin D increasing testosterone.

 

The real problem with studies is, that it gives the average alteration of a marker. Which usually means it increased in most a bid, in another few a lot, and in a few it decreased.

 

The only way to know to which subgroup one is belonging is to test. Here my results for the last 8 years:

testosterone vs. 25(OH)D
year: ng/dl ng/ml

2010: 399 - 63
2011: 220 - 43
2012: 262 - 62
2013: 320 - 84
2014: 340 - 50
2015: 351 - 78
2016: 468 - 72
2017: 631 - 101

So in my case I seem to have belonged to all subgroups at different times - in the long run over 8 years there seems to be an association with an substantial increase. The dose of vitamin D3 has been in average 8.000 IU/d. Highest in 2012 with up to 12.000 IUs. Lowest with about 6000 IUs while starting to supplement in 2010. The remaining years leveling out at 8000 IU/d.

 

In my experience I never could 'feel' fluctuation in testosterone. But only could see them in lab-tests.

 

 

PS: don't ask about the multitude of confounders - like other nutrients increased in that same time frame - to my results..

Edited by pamojja, 09 February 2018 - 08:36 AM.

[Heisok]

Changed mind. Sorry, can't delete.

Edited by Heisok, 09 February 2018 - 10:14 PM.

[smithx]

pamojja, what's your blood level of D25 during this time (or now)? Do you have that data?

Do you have pre and post blood work?

 
As you are well aware, there are countless studies on vitamin D increasing testosterone.

 
The real problem with studies is, that it gives the average alteration of a marker. Which usually means it increased in most a bid, in another few a lot, and in a few it decreased.
 
The only way to know to which subgroup one is belonging is to test. Here my results for the last 8 years:

testosterone vs. 25(OH)D
year: ng/dl ng/ml

2010: 399 - 63
2011: 220 - 43
2012: 262 - 62
2013: 320 - 84
2014: 340 - 50
2015: 351 - 78
2016: 468 - 72
2017: 631 - 101

So in my case I seem to have belonged to all subgroups at different times - in the long run over 8 years there seems to be an association with an substantial increase. The dose of vitamin D3 has been in average 8.000 IU/d. Highest in 2012 with up to 12.000 IUs. Lowest with about 6000 IUs while starting to supplement in 2010. The remaining years leveling out at 8000 IU/d.
 
In my experience I never could 'feel' fluctuation in testosterone. But only could see them in lab-tests.
 
 
PS: don't ask about the multitude of confounders - like other nutrients increased in that same time frame - to my results..

[pamojja]

pamojja, what's your blood level of D25 during this time (or now)? Do you have that data?
 

testosterone vs. 25(OH)D
year: ng/dl ng/ml

2010: 399 - 63
2011: 220 - 43
2012: 262 - 62
2013: 320 - 84
2014: 340 - 50
2015: 351 - 78
2016: 468 - 72
2017: 631 - 101

 

It's in the third column for each year in above table.

[smithx]

Oh right. Should have looked more carefully.

I've seen at least one study indicating that there were heart arrhythmias at 150ng/ml in some Indian agricultural workers who got a lot of sun. I wonder what a maximum safe level is.

[Slobec]

https://www.scienced...80226122548.htm

http://www.ergo-log....teroneigf1.html

http://www.ergo-log....stosterone.html

[baccheion]

Oh right. Should have looked more carefully.

I've seen at least one study indicating that there were heart arrhythmias at 150ng/ml in some Indian agricultural workers who got a lot of sun. I wonder what a maximum safe level is.

You can go much higher with vitamin D if vitamin K and magnesium is also supplemented (10 IU D3 : 2 mcg+ MK-4), as it's said vitamin D is mainly problematic due to increasing serum levels of calcium. Also, forskolin (Relentless Improvement has a 50 mg version) is said to double the sensitivity of vitamin D receptors.

Edited by baccheion, 07 March 2018 - 02:07 PM.

[pamojja]

Here my results for the last 8 years:

testosterone vs. 25(OH)D
year: ng/dl ng/ml

2010: 399 - 63
2011: 220 - 43
2012: 262 - 62
2013: 320 - 84
2014: 340 - 50
2015: 351 - 78
2016: 468 - 72
2017: 631 - 101

So in my case I seem to have belonged to all subgroups at different times - in the long run over 8 years there seems to be an association with an substantial increase. The dose of vitamin D3 has been in average 8.000 IU/d. Highest in 2012 with up to 12.000 IUs. Lowest with about 6000 IUs while starting to supplement in 2010. The remaining years leveling out at 8000 IU/d.

 

First data this year:

2018: 681 - 93

The trend seems to continue...

 

 

PS: serum levels correlated to intake:

year: ng/ml - mcg

2009:       -   50
2010:   63  -  160
2011:   43  -  140
2012:   62  -  300
2013:   84  -  200
2014:   50  -  190
2015:   78  -  210
2016:   72  -  170
2017:  101  -  220
2018:   93  -  170

Important to add - since 2013 I took my whole 6 weeks yearly vacation on a South-Indian beach, always in the deepest Winter from middle of Jan. till the of end Feb.. Each day during 10:00-12:00 AM and 3:30-5:30 PM - 4 hours total - whole body sun-exposure daily (minus maybe about 40 minutes swimming in the ocean).

 

Edited by pamojja, 18 March 2018 - 05:27 PM.

[dankis]

testosterone vs. 25(OH)D
year: ng/dl ng/ml

2010: 399 - 63
2011: 220 - 43
2012: 262 - 62
2013: 320 - 84
2014: 340 - 50
2015: 351 - 78
2016: 468 - 72
2017: 631 - 101

Very nice! The correlation factor is r = 0.7914 and even with this low sample N = 9, the p value is 0.011, which is significant (p<0.05). It is interesting indeed. I would definitely like to see more data.

Edited by dankis, 25 March 2018 - 06:39 PM.

[experimenting]

VItamin K has been said to raise T. Do you have isolated data without K?

[pamojja]

Very nice! The correlation factor is r = 0.7914 and even with this low sample N = 9, the p value is 0.011, which is significant (p<0.05). It is interesting indeed. I would definitely like to see more data.

 

It's so misleading..

 

 

PS: don't ask about the multitude of confounders - like other nutrients increased in that same time frame - to my results..

 

First, many chronic conditions on the way to resolving or already resolved, which by them-self may lead to very low testosterone or for example low fT3 syndrome too. For example all known co-factors known to increase Vitamin D metabolism, magnesium, vitamin K+A, zinc, boron - all with indications to increase testosterone on their own - have increased their intake too. Most of them in multiples then the vitamin D.

 

VItamin K has been said to raise T. Do you have isolated data without K?

 

How would you go about isolating vitamin D effects from vitamin K effects, when one has taken them together all along? For that clinical trials are done by avoiding the co-founding factors of all other nutrients. As it would never happen in a real-life situation, but would be very profitable for finding patentable compounds. Something I'm the least interested, since such artificial interventions seem to carry the highest risk of adverse events.

 

Since I'm more after 'let food by thy medicine', I wanted to harness the synergistic effects of all food ingredients. Something which has not and will never be studied, because it's not profitable for industry.

Edited by pamojja, 26 March 2018 - 08:54 PM.

[experimenting]

Very nice! The correlation factor is r = 0.7914 and even with this low sample N = 9, the p value is 0.011, which is significant (p<0.05). It is interesting indeed. I would definitely like to see more data.

It's so misleading..

PS: don't ask about the multitude of confounders - like other nutrients increased in that same time frame - to my results..

First, many chronic conditions on the way to resolving or already resolved, which by them-self may lead to very low testosterone or for example low fT3 syndrome too. For example all known co-factors known to increase Vitamin D metabolism, magnesium, vitamin K+A, zinc, boron - all with indications to increase testosterone on their own - have increased their intake too. Most of them in multiples then the vitamin D.

VItamin K has been said to raise T. Do you have isolated data without K?

How would you go about isolating vitamin D effects from vitamin K effects, when one has taken them together all along? For that clinical trials are done by avoiding the co-founding factors of all other nutrients. As it would never happen in a real-life situation, but would be very profitable for finding patentable compounds. Something I'm the least interested, since such artificial interventions seem to carry the highest risk of adverse events.

Since I'm more after 'let food by thy medicine', I wanted to harness the synergistic effects of all food ingredients. Something which has not and will never be studied, because it's not profitable for industry.

I had thought you might have supplemented D without K for a time. But obviously isolation is very difficult, was just curious.

[Believer]

VItamin K has been said to raise T. Do you have isolated data without K?

Vitamin K's effects on libido are mild but do not seem to fade from continuous use. My libido is slightly higher.

With vitamin D It's more physical such as erections increasing. 

[experimenting]

 

VItamin K has been said to raise T. Do you have isolated data without K?

Vitamin K's effects on libido are mild but do not seem to fade from continuous use. My libido is slightly higher.

With vitamin D It's more physical such as erections increasing. 

 

 

 

So you notice libido/T increases from both D and K, taken alone to be clear?

 

Any idea what the mechanisms are?

[YOLF]

FYI: 18,000IU is the max (FDA) that you should take and it could lead to symptoms of serotonin high. The calm you feel is more a result of the serotonin than the testosterone, but 1000IU is supposed to raise T by about 20% on average. K2 also raises T a little, though it's supposed to just be large doses of K2 MK4, however, that doesn't mean it won't have more synergy with D3.  I took it at high doses or around 15,000IU for several months (I definitely didn't get 20% per 1000IU), and it started making me oversatiated to the point of being lazy. Everything I got from the 15,000IU doses I can get from 2,000-3,000 except the serotonin high. I start losing motivation above 4-5,000IU. Just as much as you need on a regular basis seems to be the best way to take this stuff. Maybe some extra on special occaisions.

[baccheion]

You can look into 30,000-50,000 IU D3 (10 IU D3 : 2 mcg+ MK-4), magnesium, and a good multivitamin (Thorne 2/day or AOR Ortho-Core, for example) for 6 months. After, drop to a maintenance dose that pushes serum levels to the maximum without being out of range (80-100 ng/mL).

https://www.amazon.c...t/dp/1491243821

Edited by baccheion, 28 March 2018 - 04:18 AM.