23 replies to this topic

[jroseland]

I perused hundreds of Piracetam users reports and came across a statistically significant number of anecdotal reports of people who used Piracetam for a while and experienced some transformational benefits to their intelligence BUT when they discontinued use of the smart drug there was an unmistakable deficit of their cognitive abilities. 10% - 15% of anecdotal reports mention this Post-Piracetam Intelligence Deficit. I have a couple of explanations for this...

Please respond to this poll if you've used Piracetam...

Edited by jroseland, 29 January 2018 - 04:51 PM.

[Bretcoe]

 

 

I have a couple of explanations for this...

 

I am interested in your explanation.

 

 

Good poll, just need more participation.

[Turnbuckle]

10% - 15% of anecdotal reports mention this Post-Piracetam Intelligence Deficit. 

 

 

 

That seems too small to make anything of it.

[Debonaire_Death]

This poll doesn't have enough options.

 

I do well on piracetam--very well--but after using it for more than 3 months at a time I have a refractory period when coming off of it that can last 1 or 2 weeks, during which I have lessened articulative ability. However, such effects are not permanent and can be counteracted with cholinergic or glutamatergic supplements such as cordyceps, sarcosine, or emoxypine.

 

So a little of multiple answers. I am definitely more intelligent than when I started using piracetam, although there are a multitude of factors which account for that.

[Turnbuckle]

This poll doesn't have enough options.

 

I do well on piracetam--very well--but after using it for more than 3 months at a time I have a refractory period when coming off of it that can last 1 or 2 weeks, during which I have lessened articulative ability. However, such effects are not permanent and can be counteracted with cholinergic or glutamatergic supplements such as cordyceps, sarcosine, or emoxypine.

 

So a little of multiple answers. I am definitely more intelligent than when I started using piracetam, although there are a multitude of factors which account for that.

 

 

I think you are right. It could do both, even in the same people. And this could result--at least in part--from piracetam's effect on neuronal stem cells (NSCs). It's known, for instance, that piracetam activates NSCs in the hippocampus--

 

An exciting observation of this study is that short-term treatment with the nootropic drug piracetam, which activates mitochondrial respiration, ETC activity, and ATP production in cells with impaired mitochondrial function, promotes hippocampal neurogenesis in aged animals. Treating 18-month-old animals with piracetam significantly increased the number of IPCs and neuroblasts in the dentate gyrus (a statistically non-significant increase in total cell proliferation was also observed). In addition, an increase in total dendritic length and a more complex dendritic morphology of DCX+ immature neurons was observed in piracetam-treated aged animals compared with untreated controls. Intriguingly, the authors have previously shown that running can enhance neuronal maturation by increasing mitochondrial content and dendritic distribution (Steib et al., 2014). It will be interesting to combine exercise with piracetam treatment to dissect the role of mitochondria in exercise-induced neurogenesis. However, it is important to note that piracetam has other actions beyond enhancing mitochondrial respiration activity (Malykh and Sadaie, 2010). Moreover, piracetam treatment also led to NSC activation, and these observations seem to be independent of ETC/oxPhos.

https://www.cell.com...5909(17)30005-X

 

 

But excessive stem cell activation resulting in differentiation could deplete them as well. I saw the same problem with C60, which appeared to stimulate stem cells throughout many tissues, but then faded with long term use. I proposed in another thread that the fading could be avoided and the stem cell niches replenished by biasing stem cells to symmetric division (self-renewal) vs asymmetric division (differentiation). This could be accomplished simply by taking stearic acid prior to C60 as stearic acid causes mitochondria to fuse, and the state of mitochondria--fusion vs fission--biases stem cells to symmetric vs asymmetric division.  See Stem cell self-renewal with C60.

[AOIministrator]

Its just that people are dumb generally speaking and they ostensibly have reason to bitch about it when they can't suck on their placebos anymore.

[psych0therapist]

This poll doesn't have enough options.

 

I do well on piracetam--very well--but after using it for more than 3 months at a time I have a refractory period when coming off of it that can last 1 or 2 weeks, during which I have lessened articulative ability. However, such effects are not permanent and can be counteracted with cholinergic or glutamatergic supplements such as cordyceps, sarcosine, or emoxypine.

 

So a little of multiple answers. I am definitely more intelligent than when I started using piracetam, although there are a multitude of factors which account for that.

I'm very interested in your experience of Emoxypine, do you find that it helps synergistically with Racetams, or just after during the refractory period? How would you describe the effects? 

[jroseland]

I'm very interested in your experience of Emoxypine, do you find that it helps synergistically with Racetams, or just after during the refractory period? How would you describe the effects? 

I might have Emoxypine here in my stash... Does it maybe go by another name?

[psych0therapist]

I might have Emoxypine here in my stash... Does it maybe go by another name?

Yes sir, judging by your interest in Russian Pharma you just might. It's called Mexidol. Mine arrived today and although it's way too soon to rule out placebo, I feel fantastic right now. 

[John250]

Yes sir, judging by your interest in Russian Pharma you just might. It's called Mexidol. Mine arrived today and although it's way too soon to rule out placebo, I feel fantastic right now.

What does are you using? I have the 125mg caps from nootropicdepot. Taken one the past 3 days don’t feel much but maybe 125mg is too low. I love the research behind its antioxidant and reduction of oxidative stress affects.

[psych0therapist]

I'm taking 125mg on average 2x/day, sometimes 3x/day. It's interesting, some accounts that I've read indicate an immediate, acute effect, and others indicate an effect that was only noticed after some time. For me, there was definitely an acute effect, and having taken it regularly for the past 9 days, I can say that I just feel better. It is subtle, but noticeable.

 

Interestingly, I also have some neck problems due to herniated disks and I've been finding that I'm taking less OTC and Rx muscle relaxants/analgesics; there's simply less need. This was something I had read about but was not too hopeful for as I've got to be realistic. It's too soon to say with any certainty, and I have been taking it with Palmitoylethanolamide, which is more known for it's analgesic/anti-inflammatory properties (however, it is supposed to take up to 8 weeks to work, so there's that) but I am optimistic that this relief may continue or, potentially, become more pronounced 

[wicker558]

Yes, this is very usual. There is little to no evidence of permanent POSITIVE changes to the brain.

You can think of it like alcohol -> let's you borrow happiness from tomorrow.

 

Same with nootropics, everything has to stay in balance, nothing comes without a price. You get heightened focus but you pay for it. The trick is timing the use so the swing of pendulum hits you when you DGAF.

[Debonaire_Death]

I'm taking 125mg on average 2x/day, sometimes 3x/day. It's interesting, some accounts that I've read indicate an immediate, acute effect, and others indicate an effect that was only noticed after some time. For me, there was definitely an acute effect, and having taken it regularly for the past 9 days, I can say that I just feel better. It is subtle, but noticeable.

 

Interestingly, I also have some neck problems due to herniated disks and I've been finding that I'm taking less OTC and Rx muscle relaxants/analgesics; there's simply less need. This was something I had read about but was not too hopeful for as I've got to be realistic. It's too soon to say with any certainty, and I have been taking it with Palmitoylethanolamide, which is more known for it's analgesic/anti-inflammatory properties (however, it is supposed to take up to 8 weeks to work, so there's that) but I am optimistic that this relief may continue or, potentially, become more pronounced 

 

I have a theory behind this--piracetam enhances the permeability of cell membranes due to its affinity for the phosphate heads in the lipid bilayer. The major retarding factor in the healing of connective tissue is that chondrocytes depend on slow diffusion of nutrients through the extracellular matrix to carry out reparative processes. I think that piracetam may enhance this diffusion rate, causing it to synergize with compounds that promote the healing of connective tissue.

[psych0therapist]

I have a theory behind this--piracetam enhances the permeability of cell membranes due to its affinity for the phosphate heads in the lipid bilayer. The major retarding factor in the healing of connective tissue is that chondrocytes depend on slow diffusion of nutrients through the extracellular matrix to carry out reparative processes. I think that piracetam may enhance this diffusion rate, causing it to synergize with compounds that promote the healing of connective tissue.

Yes, you and I were actually speaking about this (generally) with regard to the immunomodulating effects of Piracetam and Phenylpiracetam, and I believe that we also discussed the publication that found this. Well, I was able to track the full paper down, I’d love to get your thoughts on it as my understanding of chemistry isn’t as comprehensive as yours.

Please see the attachment below.

Attached Files

•  Ratnikov1985_Article_EffectOfPyracetamDerivativesOn.pdf   256.79KB   8 downloads

Edited by psych0therapist, 18 January 2019 - 03:34 PM.

[SteampunkScientist]

Of all the Racetam's I have used, the most effective ones from my perspective are "Pramiracetam" and "Phenylpiracetam" - stacked with Choline and Huperzine, and sometimes Phenibut if a social situation is coming up. I normally use these when I am coding or working on guitar skills.

 

But I also combine these at times with Psilocybin. In other words combining increased neural enhancement with neural plasticity for ultimate enhanced learning.  I am trying to go beyond just "brain" enhancment, but also "muscle memory" enhancement.  (Specifically to learn difficult things such as "Sweep Picking" for example).

 

I have found that the enhancement does go away in time after disuse, but the skills learned whilst "enhanced" do not.  

 

I have also found, that one can get drunk faster too - not sure if anyone else noticed that, so now  I try to avoid situations where alcohol is involved if I am on a stack.

Edited by SteampunkScientist, 18 January 2019 - 07:02 PM.

[Debonaire_Death]

Yes, you and I were actually speaking about this (generally) with regard to the immunomodulating effects of Piracetam and Phenylpiracetam, and I believe that we also discussed the publication that found this. Well, I was able to track the full paper down, I’d love to get your thoughts on it as my understanding of chemistry isn’t as comprehensive as yours.

Please see the attachment below.

 

The immunostimulatory effect of piracetam hydrazide was an interesting aside in the article, as well. I'm not familiar with the dosage metrics they are using, though--it appears that they are using equivalent doses for piracetam, piracetam hydrazide and phenylpiracetam, which doesn't reflect normal human dosing of these compounds.

 

The study doesn't have anything to say about the sensitivity of histaminergic response to allergens, however, just a count of splenic antibody-forming cells.

[psych0therapist]

The immunostimulatory effect of piracetam hydrazide was an interesting aside in the article, as well. I'm not familiar with the dosage metrics they are using, though--it appears that they are using equivalent doses for piracetam, piracetam hydrazide and phenylpiracetam, which doesn't reflect normal human dosing of these compounds.

 

The study doesn't have anything to say about the sensitivity of histaminergic response to allergens, however, just a count of splenic antibody-forming cells.

 

It was wasn't it?

 

And yet, the research shows mixed results with regard to whether Phenylpiracetam is an immunostimulator or an immunosuppressant. I've attached two more publications on the subject, both with showed an immunostimulatory effect of Phenylpiracetam. If I'm understanding correctly it appears that the modulation is not only due to strictly biological factors, but also to the elimination of fear that accompanies Phenylpiracetam. I find that I have little if any fear with Phenylpiracetam, almost as if it's automatically reframed as excitement. Perhaps that's why I love it so much. 

 

Debonaire, have you experimented with RGPU-95? 

Attached Files

•  Phenotropil Succinate as a Substance Correcting Neuroimmune Impairments in Conditions of Informational-Physical Stress.pdf   98.35KB   1 downloads
•  Psychoimmunomodulatory Effect of Phenotropil.pdf   448.23KB   1 downloads

[BlueCloud]

I've always suspected that Piracetam had some immunosupressive aspects. Anytime I go beyond 1600 mg, I develop a cold or flu. There are also countless subjective reports on this forum of people having the same issues

https://www.longecit...sinus-problems/

 

[neural tweaking]

I believe this effect is related to the downregulation of AMPA receptors with AMPA positive modulator/ampakine usage. AMPA receptors are pretty valuable in LTP, and a natural lack of them is associated with autism and ADHD. It wouldn't surprise me if suddenly cycling off of piracetam results in heightened thresholds for LTP and excitatory signaling, and therefore some loss in cognitive ability. Best solution seems to be to cycle with AMPA receptor antagonists (taken, say, at night) to avoid AMPA receptor density decline

[Keizo]

I've always suspected that Piracetam had some immunosupressive aspects. Anytime I go beyond 1600 mg, I develop a cold or flu. There are also countless subjective reports on this forum of people having the same issues

https://www.longecit...sinus-problems/

That's probably just a lack of choline and a lack of piracetam causing it, like every other problem people report with piracetam it is solved by taking more piracetam and choline. Piracetam is cholinergic but depletes choline , so you should triple the dose of piracetam and add 10 raw eggs and you will feel like Mr Wizard. If you get brain fog, you should add more choline. If you get a headache you should add more piracetam.

(source for advice: guy who puts 200 grams of butter in his coffee every day and sells choline and piracetam)

Edited by Keizo, 02 August 2019 - 09:38 AM.

[psych0therapist]

“Pyracetam (original spelling in Russian literature) in a dose of 200 mg/kg had a definite inhibitory effect on the primary immune response and caused a statistically significant decrease in the number of antibody-producing
cells”

Quite a few studies have shown the immunosuppressive effect of Piracetam. Interestingly, in this publication they found the effect was heightened with Phenylpiracetam but reversed with Piracetam Hydrazine

Attached Files

•  Ratnikov1985_Article_EffectOfPyracetamDerivativesOn.pdf   256.79KB   3 downloads

[Tabsunder]

I've found it hard lately to come across piracetam, several of my old vendors no longer carry it and after doing some research it seems to stem from the FDA.

I've had to supplement other racetams in its place (bouncing between Oxiracetam and Pramiracetam currently). I can definitely tell that something is missing though, and I remember from reading in the past that Piracetam was one of the nootropics that you needed/should continue to take for continued benefits (unlike pramiracetam reportedly). I will say that my overall motivation has been down these last few months and I'm looking for a solution to this.

[psych0therapist]

I've found it hard lately to come across piracetam, several of my old vendors no longer carry it and after doing some research it seems to stem from the FDA.

I've had to supplement other racetams in its place (bouncing between Oxiracetam and Pramiracetam currently). I can definitely tell that something is missing though, and I remember from reading in the past that Piracetam was one of the nootropics that you needed/should continue to take for continued benefits (unlike pramiracetam reportedly). I will say that my overall motivation has been down these last few months and I'm looking for a solution to this.

 

I've gotten all my Racetams from Nootropics Depot, they still have Piractam by the kilo if it strikes your fancy.

[EvaWhite]

This morning took about 800mg of piracetam sublingual for about 5 minutes and swallowed the rest followed by 300mg of alpha-gpc and caffeine. No food. Wow I've been looking for something that could help clear my brain fog and as of now I feel less of a mess in my mind, this morning music sounded better, I feel I can hold better conversation and process what I'm saying, less anxious.